The 144,000 in JW theology

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Wootah
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The 144,000 in JW theology

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Post by Wootah »

My understanding only 144,000 JWs go to heaven in total over the sum of human history.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... to-heaven/

Is that correct?

There are 9 million JWs worldwide (rounded up).

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... w-many-jw/

Will the vast majority of them not go to heaven and be annihilated? What happens to the JWs that don't make the 144, 000?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #451

Post by 2timothy316 »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:51 pm
Members of organized groups like this (and there are a great many) have likely already embraced the "statement of beliefs" and other doctrinal baggage (else they'd not have decided to become members).
That is not how it happened for me. So this statement is not true. Doctrinal baggage was lifted off of me. Jesus' load is light. (Matt 11:28-30). The death of the wicked doesn't burden me at all. Yet it seems from how you're reacting to scripture the Bible seems to burden you.

You sure like trying to guess how and why everyone is where they are. As Witnesses we are strongly encouraged not to judge a person before speaking with them. Are we perfect at it? No but as I said before, there are no perfect people.

1 Samuel 16:7 says, "mere man sees what appears to the eyes."
This is why as Witnesses we are taught to try and discern the heart, using God's Word the Bible. (Heb. 4:12)

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #452

Post by Wootah »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 11:33 am
2timothy316 wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 11:20 am

At least Witness do change. I wouldn't be a part of a religion that didn't. I'm not confused at all. I know of all the changes and why they were changed. I wouldn't be surprised at more changes to come.
There are many that keep doctrines that people know are false but still follow them like they were true. Like a certain holiday that just past.
Bottom line is just because people don't start off having a clear picture of what is to come doesn't make them false prophets. Otherwise no one would look at the 10 day forecast on weather websites.


Couldn't agree more! On the one hand people criticise religion because they say its old and crusty and stuck in its ways, and then they get all hysterical because we dont hold to beliefs we had back in 1884!

The expression "get over it, we have !" comes to mind.



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It does remind me of 2 Timothy 4:3, "For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

Salvation by works is music to itching ears I think. Do you think that is part of the problem for JWs as well?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #453

Post by 2timothy316 »

Wootah wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:49 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 11:33 am
2timothy316 wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 11:20 am

At least Witness do change. I wouldn't be a part of a religion that didn't. I'm not confused at all. I know of all the changes and why they were changed. I wouldn't be surprised at more changes to come.
There are many that keep doctrines that people know are false but still follow them like they were true. Like a certain holiday that just past.
Bottom line is just because people don't start off having a clear picture of what is to come doesn't make them false prophets. Otherwise no one would look at the 10 day forecast on weather websites.


Couldn't agree more! On the one hand people criticise religion because they say its old and crusty and stuck in its ways, and then they get all hysterical because we dont hold to beliefs we had back in 1884!

The expression "get over it, we have !" comes to mind.



JW
It does remind me of 2 Timothy 4:3, "For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

Salvation by works is music to itching ears I think. Do you think that is part of the problem for JWs as well?
It is not a problem as there are 7.7 billions people in the world and only 8+ million Witnesses. That is not even 1% of the world. We don't claim salvation by works, so I don't know where you got that. "So, too, faith by itself, without works, is dead." James 2:17. Through faith comes works, not salvation. "I will show you my faith by my works.” James 2:18. Works doesn't show salvation. Do these scriptures 'itch' your ears? I doubt it.

The fact that we believe only 144,000 are going to heaven, that certainly isn't itching any ears on this thread.

There is only one thing that appeals to me, that is what is true. Even if it doesn't itch my ears or isn't more popular. Truth makes my heart glad.
“If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. . . . If the Son sets you free, you will be actually free.”​—John 8:31-36.

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #454

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Wootah wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:49 pm
Salvation by works is music to itching ears I think. Do you think that is part of the problem for JWs as well?
I dont see any {quote} "problem for JWs " ; is this a "problem" you believe exists outside of your own imagination?




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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #455

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

2timothy316 wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:04 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:30 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 12:52 pm [Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #442]
Christ never made such mistakes
No one is like Christ.
So if you're looking for perfection from a person or group, you will not find it for, “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” (Ro 3:23)
So now what?
"This is the basis for "universalism" JWs and most other groups do not grasp it, yes JW's do not teach eternal punishing but they do not teach that every single human will receive eternal life.
Jesus didn't teach every single human will receive eternal life either. Read Matthew 25:46. If Jesus didn't then why should we?
If you understood what "everlasting punishment" meant then what I said would make sense.

Like so many you think in a fleshly way, you understand punishment as a fleshly concept, but Christ was speaking of spiritual matters and you have not understood.

Anyway, what does this mean then: "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive." if it doesn't mean all will be made alive what does it mean to you?
I do understand what Christ was saying. It is explained in 2 Peter 3:7
"And by that same word, the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men."

No disrespect but I don't trust people that say they are 'spirit led'. The only spirit led people I trust wrote the Bible and they say people are destroyed on the day of judgement. Christ was comparing death to life. Not life to life in Matt 25:46.
Please show where I said I was "spirit led"? I do not need human created organizations and their imposed rules and regulations and belief. I do speak with people and I listen to their views and I sometimes ask their opinions but I do not rely on others to define what is right and wrong, what is legal and illegal, I must and do face those decisions myself and the Bible is my reference not humans.

All of the "sects" are represented in the New Testament by the Pharisees, they were reprimanded by Jesus for our sake, so that we could understand that humans imposing rules and regulations are wolves in sheep's clothing.

Rules like "no blood transfusions" or "must attend Church meetings on Sunday" or "must contribute 10% of your earnings to the Church" and so on are analogous to how the Pharisees appressed the ordinary Jew, burdening them with a yoke.

Each of the many many "sects" have their own yoke, their own set of burdens and Christ calls that out, he did so with the Jewish authorities of the day and they had him executed, today these sects "execute Christ" again, over and over.

The "destruction of ungodly men" like everything else is spiritual not physical, not referring to fleshly destruction, we cannot become a "new man" unless the old one is destroyed, we, each of us in our own way and own time must be destroyed - spiritually.
When one has eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #456

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

2timothy316 wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:07 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:51 pm
Members of organized groups like this (and there are a great many) have likely already embraced the "statement of beliefs" and other doctrinal baggage (else they'd not have decided to become members).
That is not how it happened for me. So this statement is not true. Doctrinal baggage was lifted off of me. Jesus' load is light. (Matt 11:28-30). The death of the wicked doesn't burden me at all. Yet it seems from how you're reacting to scripture the Bible seems to burden you.

You sure like trying to guess how and why everyone is where they are. As Witnesses we are strongly encouraged not to judge a person before speaking with them. Are we perfect at it? No but as I said before, there are no perfect people.

1 Samuel 16:7 says, "mere man sees what appears to the eyes."
This is why as Witnesses we are taught to try and discern the heart, using God's Word the Bible. (Heb. 4:12)
Can we discuss blood transfusions then? how is that not doctrinal baggage? were you opposed to that before joining this organization?
When one has eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

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Post by Tcg »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:49 am I do not need human created organizations and their imposed rules and regulations and belief. I do speak with people and I listen to their views and I sometimes ask their opinions but I do not rely on others to define what is right and wrong, what is legal and illegal, I must and do face those decisions myself and the Bible is my reference not humans.
Sounds great until one realizes that the Bible was written by, copied by, and translated by humans. If you rely on the Bible your reference is indeed humans.


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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #458

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Tcg wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:00 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:49 am I do not need human created organizations and their imposed rules and regulations and belief. I do speak with people and I listen to their views and I sometimes ask their opinions but I do not rely on others to define what is right and wrong, what is legal and illegal, I must and do face those decisions myself and the Bible is my reference not humans.
Sounds great until one realizes that the Bible was written by, copied by, and translated by humans. If you rely on the Bible your reference is indeed humans.


Tcg
It would seem that way but for the fact that the evidence shows that despite such copying the text has not changed, if we have evidence of centuries and centuries of text being copied and not being changed or edited (there are very very minor variants of course) that seems - to me - to all but eliminate the human element.
When one has eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #459

Post by Tcg »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:10 am
Tcg wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:00 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:49 am I do not need human created organizations and their imposed rules and regulations and belief. I do speak with people and I listen to their views and I sometimes ask their opinions but I do not rely on others to define what is right and wrong, what is legal and illegal, I must and do face those decisions myself and the Bible is my reference not humans.
Sounds great until one realizes that the Bible was written by, copied by, and translated by humans. If you rely on the Bible your reference is indeed humans.


Tcg
It would seem that way but for the fact that the evidence shows that despite such copying the text has not changed, if we have evidence of centuries and centuries of text being copied and not being changed or edited (there are very very minor variants of course) that seems - to me - to all but eliminate the human element.
It doesn't seem that way, it is that way. You are of course ignoring the initial written by humans detail. If you rely on the Bible, you reference is indeed humans.


Tcg
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I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #460

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Tcg wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:24 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:10 am
Tcg wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:00 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:49 am I do not need human created organizations and their imposed rules and regulations and belief. I do speak with people and I listen to their views and I sometimes ask their opinions but I do not rely on others to define what is right and wrong, what is legal and illegal, I must and do face those decisions myself and the Bible is my reference not humans.
Sounds great until one realizes that the Bible was written by, copied by, and translated by humans. If you rely on the Bible your reference is indeed humans.


Tcg
It would seem that way but for the fact that the evidence shows that despite such copying the text has not changed, if we have evidence of centuries and centuries of text being copied and not being changed or edited (there are very very minor variants of course) that seems - to me - to all but eliminate the human element.
It doesn't seem that way, it is that way. You are of course ignoring the initial written by humans detail. If you rely on the Bible, you reference is indeed humans.


Tcg
When you say "it is that way" I take it you can offer proof that the text has not been supernaturally originated?
When one has eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

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