The 144,000 in JW theology

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The 144,000 in JW theology

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My understanding only 144,000 JWs go to heaven in total over the sum of human history.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... to-heaven/

Is that correct?

There are 9 million JWs worldwide (rounded up).

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... w-many-jw/

Will the vast majority of them not go to heaven and be annihilated? What happens to the JWs that don't make the 144, 000?
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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

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Post by JehovahsWitness »

Diogenes wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:41 pm ... why? Or did you mean "What they are to do there?" Perhaps my English is deficient, but I did not understand what you meant to say ...

Why (for what purpose), does God call individuals from earth to live as immortal spirit persons in heaven? What are they called to heaven to do?




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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

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Post by Diogenes »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:00 pm
Diogenes wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:41 pm What is your understanding of which people are called to heaven?
"Which people", as in "who"? Are you asking me "Who are called to heaven"?

WHO GO TO HEAVEN?


Biblically only "born again" (spirit anointed) baptised Christians are called to heaven. ie only those chosen by God and invited by Christ have that privelege. Revelation indicates the 12 faithful Apostles were the first to receive such an invitation and scriptures indicate the invitation subsequently went out to all first century Christians thereafter (Rev 21:14 , 1 Pet 2:9). Biblically, only God and Jesus can name them all.
Isn't that the standard evangelical position? Why do you say only JW's properly understand?
I don't believe you addressed my question. "What is your Biblical basis for believing the JW position is accurate, that only 'THEY' [JW's] have a clear understanding of..." who or why people go to heaven. Your answer is consistent with orthodox evangelical Christianity. Is it not?
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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

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Post by myth-one.com »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:39 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:31 pm The scriptures state that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;... (I Corinthians 15:49-50)
Did I say "flesh and blood" people inherit the kingdom ?
Here is what JehovahsWitness wrote:I am convinced what Jehovahs Witnesses believe is true because only they (in my personal opinion) have a clear understanding of why people go to heaven. Once the reason becomes clear, the understanding of the number becomes clear. Nobody else has been able to explain to me, in a clear, simple and biblically sound way "what people called to heaven to do?" which is why imho the only way their "everbody goes to heaven" position is tenable.
People: human beings in general or considered collectively.

Human being: a man, woman, or child of the species Homo sapiens.

All people are flesh and blood.

So who are these people in heaven that you posted about?

And what is their purpose in heaven?

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #64

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Here is what JehovahsWitness wrote:... "what people called to heaven to do?"

IF FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM HOW CAN WE SAY SOME HUMANS GO TO HEAVEN?


Humans (flesh and blood) are called (ie invited) to heaven. No human people will actually arrive (inherit) in heaven.

Born again christians are invited to heaven (while they are human flesh and blood). If faithful they will die and be resurrected as SPIRIT persons (individuals) and arrive in heaven as such. Think of it like being named in a will but you don't actually get the inheritance until you turn 21. Jehovah extends the invitation to selected human beings but the Christians invited don't actually get their inheritance until they are resurrected as spirits.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

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Post by myth-one.com »

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #63]

Oops, I think I found where JehovahsWittness already answered my question above:
JehovahsWittness wrote: WHO GO TO HEAVEN?

Biblically only "born again" (spirit anointed) baptised Christians are called to heaven. ie only those chosen by God and invited by Christ have that privilege.
Actually, one must be born again of the Spirit to inherit the Kingdom of God.

To date, that includes no one.

All Christians are presently heirs to everlasting life. No Christian has as yet been born again of the Spirit.

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

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Post by JehovahsWitness »

myth-one.com wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:50 pm No Christian has as yet been born again of the Spirit.
That is your understanding, this thread is about the Jehovahs Witness position. We do not believe being "born again" in spirit is restricted to being made into an angel or a spirit at death. Well before their death and resurrection some Christians are adopted as spirit sons of God (ie God signalling to them by means of his holy spirit they have been selected to go to heaven) and that all those with such a heavenly calling are "born again" as of that moment while alive on this earth as humans. Certainly they actually obtain that promised spirit life upon their resurrection.

ROMANS 8:14

For all who are led by God’s spirit are indeed God’s sons.+ 15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but you received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!”+ 16 The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit+ that we are God’s children.+ 17 If, then, we are children, we are also heirs—heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs+ with Christ—provided we suffer together+ so that we may also be glorified together.+



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HEAVEN , BORN AGAIN and ... THE 144, 000
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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

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Eloi wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:41 pm Obviously you think a lot about yourself O:) You have not much else to talk about.
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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #68

Post by Diogenes »

myth-one.com wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:44 pm I agree. People who read or even "study" the scriptures, do not do so to discover biblical truths.

They read the scriptures seeking support for what they have been taught as the truth.

When they cannot find that support, they simply provide their own interpretation.
This is certainly true of some, but it is false when applied to all.

Many read scripture and what is salient are the passages than conflict with what they have been taught, or even seem to contradict other verses. When this happens there are several subsets of responses, not mutually exclusive:

1. They study more to resolve the apparent conflict.
2. Some shift their opinion to align with their new understanding
3. They may even change their denominational preference.
4. Some conclude "It is a mystery beyond man's feeble understanding," or they just accept the conflict and move on.
5. They conclude scripture has too many errors to be written by God, and thus has no authority.

There are probably more, with variations.

In any event, this is one reason why there are many denominations, schisms, faiths, and "infidels."
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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

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Post by myth-one.com »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:59 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:50 pm No Christian has as yet been born again of the Spirit.
That is your understanding, this thread is about the Jehovahs Witness position. We do not believe being "born again" in spirit means being made into an angel or a spirit at death.
Good morning, JehovahsWitness,

You are correct about that. We are not made into an angel or spirit at death.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:59 pmWe believe scripture is referring to being adopted as spirit sons of God . . .
Yes, Christians become "adopted" in the sense that we are made joint-heirs with the only begotten son of God -- Jesus Christ. Our names are written in the Book of Life with His.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:59 pm(ie God signalling to them by means of his holy spirit they have been selected to go to heaven) and that all those with such a heavenly calling are "born again" as of that moment while alive on this earth as humans.
They are born again as of that moment to a hope.
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 1 Peter 1:3
They are not born again at that moment of the Spirit (God the Father) as a spirit.

That occurs at the Second Coming when Christians receive their inheritance:
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. (1 Thessalonians 4:16)

And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me... (Revelation 22:12)
Here is a biblical description of the two type of bodies:
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. (I Corinthians 15:44-50)
The first man Adam was made a living soul, or being, because he was part of the animal kingdom. That is, the first body any human has is that of a living, breathing being. The last Adam will be made a quickening spirit since he will live in the Kingdom of God. That is, the last body any former human can have will be an eternal spiritual body. Notice that "Adam" is identified as a "man" only when he is made as a living soul or being. When "made a quickening spirit" the entity is called only Adam. This is significant because at this point, Adam is no longer a man, or human being. The last Adam is made a quickening spirit which lives forever. Of course, any human's name can be substituted in the place of Adam. Flesh and blood, such as man, cannot inherit the Kingdom of God; thus one must be born again as a spirit.

The actual act of deceased Christians being born again and a comparison of natural versus spiritual bodies is found in First Corinthians. Paul is writing to the Christians at Corinth, so he is speaking about the bodies of deceased Christians:
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (I Corinthians 15:42-45)
This scripture is not complicated. The Christian body that is sown is corruptible, dishonored, weak, and a natural body. This is the physical body which is buried like a seed, or sown, when we die.

At the resurrection, Christians are raised up as incorruptible, glorified, powerful, spiritual bodies. This is exactly what the above verses state! Read them again several times if you must to confirm their simple truth.

Those humans who died believing in Jesus Christ will be born as spiritual bodies at the resurrection. Since this is their second birth, they are born again. The first man Adam was a living, breathing being or soul. The last Adam will be made a quickening spirit or spiritual body.

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

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Post by PinSeeker »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:59 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:50 pm No Christian has as yet been born again of the Spirit.
That is your understanding, this thread is about the Jehovahs Witness position. We do not believe being "born again" in spirit means being made into an angel or a spirit at death. We believe scripture is referring to being adopted as spirit sons of God (ie God signalling to them by means of his holy spirit they have been selected to go to heaven) and that all those with such a heavenly calling are "born again" as of that moment while alive on this earth as humans.
ROMANS 8:14-17 -- "For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by Whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs ~ heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with Him in order that we may also be glorified with Him."
Right, and I would add these references, too:

EPHESIANS 2:4-8 -- "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

1 PETER 1:3-5 -- "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

In all these passages, believers, very much alive and still not passed from this life, are being spoken to ~ and by extension, all of us believers today ~ and this being born again is unmistakably and inarguably past tense. There can be no mistake: Christians are born again of the Spirit in this life. This is the first resurrection, and not all experience it. This is God building His kingdom.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This thread in particular is ~ was, I guess ~ really just about JW theology concerning the 144,000 of Revelation 7 and 14. Even so, that does not preclude debating it, which is what this forum is for. Rebuttals are allowed. :) Not to reignite the debate, really, but mine is thus (again):

One thousand is a number used throughout the Bible to symbolize completeness/fullness. The number twelve, is, also, in the case of the tribes of Israel, and later the twelve disciples and the twelve apostles. Yes, there are a hard and fast 12 tribes of Israel, but each of those tribes consisted of many, many Israelites ~ the tribe of Benjamin, the tribe of Dan, the tribe of Judah (to name three of the twelve). The 12 disciples/apostles in the New Testament, also a hard and fast number, and is a carrying forward of that concept of completeness and fullness. As for the 144,000 in Revelation 7 and 14, what should be seen is not a hard and fast number of 144,000, because verses 9-17 of Revelation 7 further flesh out what the "144,000" really is, a countless multitude, the complete body of God's elect, those truly of Abraham, who was promised by God all the way back in Genesis 13 and 15 that his offspring would number as the grains of dust of the earth that cannot possibly be counted (Genesis 13:16) and as the stars of the heavens that, again, cannot possibly be counted (Genesis 15:5). Revelation 7:1-8 emphasizes the Israelite heritage of the New Testament people of God, and Revelation 7:9-17 emphasizes their international character. Again, they are a great multitude... from every nation, tribe, people, and language, fulfilling the promise to Abraham that all the peoples on earth would be blessed through him (Genesis 12:3 and Genesis 17:5).

Here's the thing. :) It has been said that the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed. This is a great truism, the only "difference" between the Old and New Testaments. Generally speaking, what was "hard and fast" and "woodenly literal" in the Old Testament is fully fleshed out in the New Testament. Up until Revelation, though. Revelation ~ foreshadowed in parts of Scripture (like Daniel, Zechariah, and Matthew) is really a microcosm of sorts of all of Scripture. It's the last book in the Bible for good reason. :) It's what we might call an all-encompassing wrap-up of Scripture. :D

Grace and peace to all.

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