The 144,000 in JW theology

[Wootah]

My understanding only 144,000 JWs go to heaven in total over the sum of human history.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... to-heaven/

Is that correct?

There are 9 million JWs worldwide (rounded up).

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... w-many-jw/

Will the vast majority of them not go to heaven and be annihilated? What happens to the JWs that don't make the 144, 000?

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to Eloi in post #8]
On a personal note - are you trying to achieve that status of one of the 144,000?

Who or what do you say the 144,000 are, Wootah?

12 tribes, 12 disciples. A symbol of the whole and complete body of Christians.

If you add those up it comes to 24. Even if you multiply them, you get only 144. That's 143,856 short.

One thousand is a number used throughout the Bible to symbolize completeness/fullness. The number twelve, is, also, in the case of the tribes of Israel, and later the twelve disciples and the twelve apostles. Yes, there were twelve tribes of Israel, but each of those tribes consisted of many, many Israelites ~ the tribe of Benjamin, the tribe of Dan, the tribe of Judah (to name three of the twelve). The twelve disciples of Jesus in the New Testament is a carrying forward of that concept of completeness and fullness. As for the 144,000 in Revelation 7, what should be seen is not a hard and fast number of 144,000, but rather 12 times 12 times 1000 ~ or 12 times 10,000, which is also a number of completeness used in the Bible, actually a complete completeness ~ so a metaphor of reality, a complete, complete, completeness, which sounds repetitive and is and purposely so. This is a bit different thing, but it can be associated with, as Jesus said several times, "truly, truly," a repetition of that word to say, basically, "What I'm saying here is truly true." At any rate, this is the consummation of the promise made to Abraham all the way back in Genesis 13 and 15, which is that his offspring, the people of God, would number as the grains of dust of the earth that cannot possibly be counted (Genesis 13:16) and as the stars of the heavens that, again, cannot possibly be counted (Genesis 15:5). Two more things about this 144,000:

1. As we see in Revelation 21, heaven comes down to earth, so there will no longer be two realms as there are now. Heaven and earth will be one. So there cannot be any number of folks still separated (or kept separate, or "re-separated") from any number of folks, much less a hard and fast 144,000 people "ruling from above" over a bunch of folks below. We will finally all be one group, no one "ruling over" any other, and, in light of the above explanation, larger than anyone can number.

2. Regarding Revelation 7 itself, the group of folks described in verses 9 through 17 (the great multitude from every nation) is the same group of folks as ~ not a different group of folks than ~ that group of folks described in verses 1 through 8 (the number of the sealed in Christ).

You might disagree with what I say here, but you understand what I'm saying here, I'm sure.

Grace and peace to you.

[Tcg]

You might disagree with what I say here, but you understand what I'm saying here, I'm sure.

Grace and peace to you.

No, not really. The 1,000 multiplier just gets thrown in for no explainable reason. I don't understand that at all.


Tcg

[PinSeeker]

You might disagree with what I say here, but you understand what I'm saying here, I'm sure.

No, not really. The 1,000 multiplier just gets thrown in for no explainable reason.

I mean, I just explained the reason. It's not some random thing, but something that's repeated throughout Scripture. And Revelation itself is very metaphorical and symbolic throughout. Since its literature genre is apocalyptic, that's a given. Anyway, okay, yeah, sure, you're perfectly entitled to your opinion (or lack thereof, I guess).

I don't understand that at all.

Well, you understand what I'm saying, though, I know.

Grace and peace to you.

[2timothy316]

You might disagree with what I say here, but you understand what I'm saying here, I'm sure.

Grace and peace to you.

No, not really. The 1,000 multiplier just gets thrown in for no explainable reason. I don't understand that at all.


Tcg

I'm not sure that the 1000 multiplier has some hidden meaning when it comes to the 144,000. The only thing that seems logical to me is that if these 144,000 are to be kings and priests over the earth as it says in Revelation 5:9, 10. And the number to be on the earth is said to be uncountable by man, then it makes sense there will be a need for a large number of leaders and teachers. I mean how many kings, queens, presidents, professors, are in the earth now? It certainly isn't 12 or 24. I also makes sense to have the future of mankind covered as well as far as leadership and education.

[Tcg]

You might disagree with what I say here, but you understand what I'm saying here, I'm sure.

No, not really. The 1,000 multiplier just gets thrown in for no explainable reason.

I mean, I just explained the reason. It's not some random thing, but something that's repeated throughout Scripture. And Revelation itself is very metaphorical and symbolic throughout. Since its literature genre is apocalyptic, that's a given. Anyway, okay, yeah, sure, you're perfectly entitled to your opinion (or lack thereof, I guess).

I don't understand that at all.

Well, you understand what I'm saying, though, I know.

Grace and peace to you.

Nope, I don't understand at all. This is due in no small part that you haven't even attempted to explain it.


Tcg

[Tcg]

I'm not sure that the 1000 multiplier has some hidden meaning when it comes to the 144,000.

There is no hidden meaning because the 1,000 multiplier isn't included at all. The 1,000 multiplier is thrown in without any support, Biblical or otherwise.


Tcg

[PinSeeker]

Nope, I don't understand at all.

Well, that's unfortunate.

This is due in no small part that you haven't even attempted to explain it.

Oh, I did, in Post 21 above, clearly. But you're certainly welcome to your opinion.

Grace and peace to you.

[PinSeeker]

There is no "hidden meaning," certainly.

The 1,000 multiplier is thrown in without any support, Biblical or otherwise.

Just a few of the many:

• Genesis 20:16 ~ "To Sarah (Abimelech) said, 'Behold, I have given your brother a thousand pieces of silver. It is a sign of your innocence in the eyes of all who are with you, and before everyone you are vindicated.”

• Numbers 10:36 ~ "And when it rested, (Moses) said, 'Return, O LORD, to the ten thousand thousands of Israel.' ”

• Deuteronomy 7:9 ~ "Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations..."

• 1 Chronicles 16:15, Psalm 105:8 ~ "Remember his covenant forever, the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations..."

• Job 9:3 ~ "If one wished to contend with him, one could not answer him once in a thousand times."

• Psalm 50:10, 2 Peter 3:8 ~ "For every beast of the forest is Mine, the cattle on a thousand hills."

• Psalm 90:4 ~ "For a thousand years in your sight are but as yesterday when it is past, or as a watch in the night."

• Revelation 20:2-4 ~ "And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while. Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

Grace and peace to you, Tcg.

[Wootah]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #17]

Maybe it's about maths. I think a new thread on the 144,000 is in order for general debate. Soon.

[JehovahsWitness]

There is no "hidden meaning," certainly.

Agreed. There is no doubt the word thousand(s) are mentioned often in scripture. Jehovah's witnesses believe that in the case of the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation, it is to be taken literally. If that literal number also reminds us of completeness in a biblical sense, that just adds an interesting dimention to things.


JW