The 144,000 in JW theology

[Wootah]

My understanding only 144,000 JWs go to heaven in total over the sum of human history.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... to-heaven/

Is that correct?

There are 9 million JWs worldwide (rounded up).

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... w-many-jw/

Will the vast majority of them not go to heaven and be annihilated? What happens to the JWs that don't make the 144, 000?

[myth-one.com]

Just because Jesus was made flesh and died in the flesh doesn't mean no spirit can die if they are a spirit. It does show that even the Son of God can die.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

If there are only two type of living beings, physical and spiritual, and if both type of beings can die as you claim -- then how can God promise everlasting life to anyone -- as He does in John 3:16 above?

[2timothy316]

Just because Jesus was made flesh and died in the flesh doesn't mean no spirit can die if they are a spirit. It does show that even the Son of God can die.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

If there are only two type of living beings, physical and spiritual, and if both type of beings can die as you claim -- then how can God promise everlasting life to anyone -- as He does in John 3:16 above?

Wouldn't you call John 3:16 a conditional statement? Who is promised everlasting life? Isn't it one that has faith in Jesus Christ? What happens when a person stops exercising their faith in Jesus? Do they deserve to live or should they be removed from the book of life and sent to the second death?

Tell me about Satan. What believes and faith drive his actions? Is it Jesus Christ?

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #112]

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Christianity divides mankind into two groups -- believers and nonbelievers. All nonbelievers will perish. All believers will gain everlasting life.

We have been debating the fate of the believers. My claim is that believers gain everlasting life by being born again as spiritual bodied beings, as spiritual bodied beings are immortal and cannot be killed or destroyed.

Others claim that spiritual bodied beings can be killed.

That being the case, I poised the following question:

If there are only two type of living beings, physical and spiritual, and if both type of beings can die -- then how can God promise everlasting life to anyone -- as He does in John 3:16 above?

No one has yet provided an answer.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #112]

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Christianity divides mankind into two groups -- believers and nonbelievers. All nonbelievers will perish. All believers will gain everlasting life.

We have been debating the fate of the believers. My claim is that believers gain everlasting life by being born again as spiritual bodied beings, as spiritual bodied beings are immortal and cannot be killed or destroyed.

Others claim that spiritual bodied beings can be killed.

That being the case, I poised the following question:

If there are only two type of living beings, physical and spiritual, and if both type of beings can die -- then how can God promise everlasting life to anyone -- as He does in John 3:16 above?

No one has yet provided an answer.

The promise of everlasting live is conditional. One doesn't just get everlasting life for believing in Jesus for like a day, a week, a month or years and then stop. They must do so forever, and if they do, then eternal life comes with it.
What makes you think because someone CAN die, means they can't live forever? If Jehovah God wants someone alive nothing can stop that. So too goes with someone He wants dead, nothing can stop that either. Just because someone CAN die doesn't stop them from living forever if it is God's will. Jesus is evidence of that.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #113]

We have been debating the fate of the believers. My claim is that believers gain everlasting life by being born again as spiritual bodied beings, as spiritual bodied beings are immortal and cannot be killed or destroyed.

Others claim that spiritual bodied beings can be killed.

That being the case, I poised the following question:

If there are only two type of living beings, physical and spiritual, and if both type of beings can die -- then how can God promise everlasting life to anyone -- as He does in John 3:16 above?

To your question:

If God makes a promise, we can know the promise is true because HE made that promise. He is the One who knows what will happen, and what was needed to bring this about. And we will have access to the Tree of Life.

(And even if something could be destroyed, that does not mean that it would be destroyed. There will be no more death; death is destroyed, along with the world of the dead. That is how certain God is that there will never again be need of a world of the dead.)


Spirit beings (seraphs, what most refer to as angels) do not die, you are right in that. They do not get old and die of old age or sickness. But that does not mean they cannot be destroyed (by "fire" from God).

**

As for spirit - we are all spirit within these clay vessels. The new/spirit body (the white robe spoken of in Revelation), is still a body, but with NO sin or death in it. Consider Christ - He could eat and be touched and be seen when He rose from the dead, and He could also move through doors/walls; materialize and de-materialize, move from spirit to flesh to spirit (matter to energy to matter). Adam also could move between the physical and the spiritual realms (the Garden of Eden is the spiritual realm) before he was given THIS body that we inherited from him (the long garment of skin that has sin and death in it). If we are born again, we will be born into the new body, the white robe, the body with NO sin or death in it, but only LIFE in it.

Just some things to keep in mind, even bring to Christ, ask Him for the truth of this (or any other) matter.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

My claim is that all spiritual beings already possess immortality!

I have already quoted such scriptures. [...] Do you want to see them again?

Yes please.

[JehovahsWitness]

All spiritual bodied beings were created to live forever

This is true, I dont think anyone is disputing that. They were not however created immortal* God created spirits to live forever, whether they do or not depends on if they choose to be faithful. Prove me wrong.




* by immortal I mean being indestructible (you cannot die or be killed)

[myth-one.com]

If there are only two type of living beings, physical and spiritual, and if both type of beings can die -- then how can God promise everlasting life to anyone -- as He does in John 3:16 above?

To your question:

If God makes a promise, we can know the promise is true because HE made that promise. He is the One who knows what will happen, and what was needed to bring this about. And we will have access to the Tree of Life.

(And even if something could be destroyed, that does not mean that it would be destroyed. There will be no more death; death is destroyed, along with the world of the dead. That is how certain God is that there will never again be need of a world of the dead.)

Spirit beings (seraphs, what most refer to as angels) do not die, you are right in that. They do not get old and die of old age or sickness. But that does not mean they cannot be destroyed (by "fire" from God).

If angels can be destroyed by fire from God, then when believers become equal unto the angels, we have not totally escaped from possible death!

So if angels can be destroyed, then becoming equal unto the angels does not guarantee the everlasting life promised in John 3:16!

<=======================>

As for spirit - we are all spirit within these clay vessels.

I believe the scriptures, so I'm not a "spirit within a clay vessel." I have only been born of the flesh, and will not be born again of the Spirit until the Second Coming. I will be resurrected with an indestructible spiritual body at the first resurrection at the Second Coming, or changed immediately into a spiritual body if I am alive at the Second Coming.

Why is this so? Because I am a Christian and that is what the scriptures state will happen to Christians.

Referring to the bodies of deceased Christians, Paul writes:

It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body...

The Bible states that the natural body comes first and is followed by the spiritual body. So that is what I believe:

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

If I claimed to be a spirit while a human, I would be equating myself with God:

Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. [/color]

And blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the one unforgivable sin, so I want to stay far away from that:

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

[tam]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #118]

Myth-one (peace to you), do you think there is no spirit (what most call 'soul') then?

The spirit that we are, the person that we are, is more than just this flesh and blood. A person being spirit in this vessel does not make them equal unto God. You know that. You don't think angels (spirit beings) are equal unto God, right? (And just because the Jews accused Christ of blasphemy does not mean that He committed blasphemy, as I am sure you know also.)


And yes, when we are born again, we will be in the new body, the white robe, the spirit body. We are currently in these bodies that have sin and death in them - this is the 'natural body' (the long garment of skin that we inherited from Adam). But once we are born again (more than just the deposit of holy spirit that is given us), we will have the new body, the spirit body, the white robe that has been washed clean in the blood of the lamb. No sin or death in it.



Peace again to you.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #112]

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Christianity divides mankind into two groups -- believers and nonbelievers. All nonbelievers will perish. All believers will gain everlasting life.

We have been debating the fate of the believers. My claim is that believers gain everlasting life by being born again as spiritual bodied beings, as spiritual bodied beings are immortal and cannot be killed or destroyed.

Others claim that spiritual bodied beings can be killed.

That being the case, I poised the following question:

If there are only two type of living beings, physical and spiritual, and if both type of beings can die -- then how can God promise everlasting life to anyone -- as He does in John 3:16 above?

No one has yet provided an answer.

The promise of everlasting live is conditional.

Conditional life is not necessarily everlasting life.

If God grants someone everlasting life, then that person will never die.

If someone that God granted everlasting life dies, then God lied about granting that person everlasting life.

But God cannot lie:

]In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Therefore, nothing exists that can kill (or destroy) a person whom God has granted everlasting life.

What makes you think because someone CAN die, means they can't live forever?

I'm OK with that. How does it apply to John 3:16?

So too goes with someone He wants dead, nothing can stop that either.

No, that claim is false. God cannot kill someone He made to be immortal. The devil is a good example. The devil will be restrained for ever in the lake of fire because he cannot perish.

Likewise, this is precisely why the natural body comes first for man, and the spiritual body may or may not come second.

Why? Because once granted, everlasting spiritual bodied life cannot be taken away! Thus man is born mortal, and must choose to accept or reject everlasting life. The original angels did not have this exit door.

It is the most important decision each human must make. And God will honor either choice. It is OK to reject everlasting life.

Just because someone CAN die doesn't stop them from living forever if it is God's will. Jesus is evidence of that.

Jesus died His first death, which is appointed to all mankind.