#5 Jesus on Hell Matthew 25:31-46

[Wootah]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Verse 46 says they will go away to eternal punishment but the righteous to eternal life.

If 'go away to eternal punishment' means annihilation then why presume 'righteous to eternal life' means eternal life?

There are two eternal destinations, hell and heaven being expressed in verse 46.

Isn't it biased to say eternal punishment is not eternal but eternal life is eternal life?

According to those that believe in annihilation and that the Bible doesn't teach hell, why do they interpret the first half of verse 46 as non-literal and the second half as literally?

[myth-one.com]

I hope you can appreciate my efforts.

WOW, I applaud your efforts!

[Checkpoint]

]\[Replying to Wootah in post #1]

1. Verse 46 says they will go away to eternal punishment but the righteous to eternal life.

If 'go away to eternal punishment' means annihilation then why presume 'righteous to eternal life' means eternal life?

2. There are two eternal destinations, hell and heaven being expressed in verse 46.

3. Isn't it biased to say eternal punishment is not eternal but eternal life is eternal life?

4. According to those that believe in annihilation and that the Bible doesn't teach hell, why do they interpret the first half of verse 46 as non-literal and the second half as literally?

You can see I have numbered your questions/statements.

That makes them easier and more clear, and likewise, the answers I now give.

1. If eternal life means eternal life, then eternal punishment means eternal punishment, not annihilation.

2. Verse 46 does not state destinations, but court decisions and/or verdicts.

However, verses 34 and 41 do state destinations. These verses tell us each has been prepared. One is to inherit the kingdom, and the other into eternal fire.

3. There may be bias, but not the one you allege. Rather, it is of those who see death as retaining some form of existence, and therefore see anything less as not being eternal.

4. They don't divide it into literal and non-literal.

Instead, they see that punishment is about what God's court and its penal verdict,. That is what is eternal and will never be reversed.

[PinSeeker]

The Bible indicates that there are two worlds, the physical or earthly world, and the spiritual or heavenly world.

Well, it claims that there is the physical and the spiritual, but not "two worlds." My goodness.

Are you claiming that dead earthlings go to the other world?

"Dead earthlings...." The "other world..." LOL! Uh, no, I don't claim such.

Grace and peace to you, myth-one.

[PinSeeker]

Even if there is a "distinction between body and self", everybody knows that this "self" or conciousness we have can be supported ONLY AND EXCLUSIVELY on the physical body we were created with. There is not human thoughts without a human brain (Gen. 2:7).

Psal. 146:4 His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground;
In that day his thoughts do perish.

A person with a damaged brain cannot be fully functional even while remaining alive ... much less a dead person whose brain is completely destroyed.

Yes, he know longer is in this world, and his thoughts are not, either. Thank you for your thoughts.

The Bible indicates that there are two worlds, the physical or earthly world, and the spiritual or heavenly world.

Are you claiming that dead earthlings go to the other world?

It seems so.

Nope.

Grace and peace to you, Eloi.

[PinSeeker]

1. If eternal life means eternal life, then eternal punishment means eternal punishment, not annihilation.

Absolutely. Agreed.

2. Verse 46 does not state destinations...

Not explicitly, no. But the implication is that there is one. If one goes away from a place ~ they are actually sent away, and they go obediently ~ then there must be a destination, somewhere he/she goes to, or is sent to. Unless you propose that they walk on forever, but no one is proposing that. "Another world?" No... "Another planet? Of course not. A different... realm? That's probably closer to the truth, but we don't really know anything other than, away from Jesus, Who will be here with us. All we know about where they are going/sent is a series of metaphors, each of which tell us something different about this place: outer darkness, where there is weeping an gnashing of teeth, a place of unending discomfort and thirst, fully immersed in a lake of fire. Among others.

...but court decisions and/or verdicts.

Yes, well, it's a final, permanent judgment, and then a sentence, for those on the left.

However, verses 34 and 41 do state destinations. These verses tell us each has been prepared. One is to inherit the kingdom, and the other into eternal fire.

Sure.

3. There may be bias, but not the one you allege. Rather, it is of those who see death as retaining some form of existence, and therefore see anything less as not being eternal.

I don't think it's really bias, per se, but that it's just terribly inconsistent, even disparate to not see the second death as... some form of existence. And then subsequently, I guess, one gets "dug in" to that position.

4. They don't divide it into literal and non-literal. Instead, they see that punishment is about what God's court and its penal verdict,. That is what is eternal and will never be reversed.

Yes, there's no argument around whether it can ever be reversed or not. It's clear that we all agree that it cannot be. But if something is eternal, then it is lasting and without end. There's no argument on that either. But this thing is not eternal in any sense if it is not lasting or not without end. And what we're talking as being eternal, lasting, and without end is punishment, which necessarily means three things:
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1. on the nature of the thing itself ~ the punishment is eternal, lasting, without end.
2. on the part of the issuer ~ the punishment (not "torture" or even "torment," physical or otherwise) is administered eternally, lastingly, and without end.
3. on the part of the recipient ~ the punishment is endured eternally, lastingly, and without end.

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None of these would be the case if annihilation or extinction or a wiping from existence were the punishment.

Grace and peace to all.

[myth-one.com]

1. on the nature of the thing itself ~ the punishment is eternal, lasting, without end.

Correct, the punishment is death:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

Good start, PinSDeeker!

2. on the part of the issuer ~ the punishment (not "torture" or even "torment," physical or otherwise) is administered eternally, lastingly, and without end.

How many times can one be killed?

3. on the part of the recipient ~ the punishment is endured eternally, lastingly, and without end.[/indent]

How many times can one person suffer death?

None of these would be the case if annihilation or extinction or a wiping from existence were the punishment.

No, actually that's the only case in which all three can be be true.

The punishment is death.

One cannot be killed consistently or repeatedly!!

After death, one is gone gone, bye bye, annihilated, extinct, or whatever word may be used to indicated that they are absent from life for ever and ever.

[PinSeeker]

1. on the nature of the thing itself ~ the punishment is eternal, lasting, without end.
2. on the part of the issuer ~ the punishment (not "torture" or even "torment," physical or otherwise) is administered eternally, lastingly, and without end.
3. on the part of the recipient ~ the punishment is endured eternally, lastingly, and without end.
None of these would be the case if annihilation or extinction or a wiping from existence were the punishment.

No, actually that's the only case in which all three can be be true.

Only if one misunderstands what death in the Bible truly is.

One cannot be killed consistently or repeatedly!!

Correct; I am certainly not suggesting such.

After death, one is... annihilated, extinct...

Nope.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

on the part of the recipient ~ the punishment is endured eternally, lastingly, and without end.

So nonbelievers live forever?

[PinSeeker]

So nonbelievers live forever?

That depends on what you mean by true 'life' and true 'death.' God's definitions are what matters.

Grace and peace to you.

[Checkpoint]

So nonbelievers live forever?

That depends on what you mean by true 'life' and true 'death.' God's definitions are what matters.

What are God's definitions, and where are they?

Grace and peace to you.