#5 Jesus on Hell Matthew 25:31-46

[Wootah]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Verse 46 says they will go away to eternal punishment but the righteous to eternal life.

If 'go away to eternal punishment' means annihilation then why presume 'righteous to eternal life' means eternal life?

There are two eternal destinations, hell and heaven being expressed in verse 46.

Isn't it biased to say eternal punishment is not eternal but eternal life is eternal life?

According to those that believe in annihilation and that the Bible doesn't teach hell, why do they interpret the first half of verse 46 as non-literal and the second half as literally?

[PinSeeker]

Okay Pinseeker (peace to you), lets review quick, because you seem to have lost track of the conversation...

Well, that's probably true at least to some extent, but... I'll just say it takes two to tango.

First you said that the body is the only thing that Christ said was asleep...

Well, "asleep," in quotes... As I said above, as used here and elsewhere, this "sleep" regarding the body is a euphemism, really, to say that the self is not present and inhabiting/animating their bodies. That may not be the absolute best way to explain it (there might be better verbiage), but it should suffice.

But Christ... said the PERSON sleeps (our friend Lazarus).

Right, that He did, but I think you're not quite understanding. Obviously, you think I don't understand or am contradicting what He said, or both. No, but I'm fine with you thinking that.

That is the opposite of what you said.

No, it's not. I can understand how you see it that way, but no.

To counter that, you then claimed that Christ was just speaking to Mary, Martha, Jairus in terms they could understand (though really He was speaking to the apostles regarding Lazarus)...

Right, and I corrected myself above...

...you also claimed that they understood only that the body was the whole person.

Not... really. I don't think you mean to be putting words in my mouth in this instance, but you kind of are. Yes, I said Jesus was speaking to them in terms they could understand, and that they did not fully understand... which can have a lot of nuance, frankly, and I didn't fully flesh that out, and didn't and don't intend to do so, because it's really not possible. I'll just say that some things are really beyond human understanding. We cannot attain to the "too-high-for-us" knowledge of God (Psalm 139:6).

But the evidence shows that Christ did in fact speak of the body and the soul (and in your newest post you admit that they probably did understand that... 'at least somewhat'). So He did not refrain from making that distinction 'to speak to them in terms they could understand'. (Paul distinguished between the two as well, and yet still used the term sleep to describe the dead (people) in Christ. Also, the verses from Samuel point to the belief that the body is not all there is to a person.)

Yep, fine.

The apostles did understand that there was a distinction...

Yes, but I maintain that they did not fully understand the distinction itself.

...there was no reason for Christ to have had to speak to them as if they did not (and were unable to) understand that there is a distinction between the body and the person.

Right, but this is not what I said. See above. Again, you are foisting things upon me ~ albeit unintentionally, unlike some other posters in this forum.

which is that there is a clear distinction made by both Jesus and Paul between the body and who we actually are.

That is not and never was the point under discussion, Pinseeker.

LOL! It was a point that needed to be made at one time in the discussion, Tammy. And I made it. You might have already understood that to be the case, but no matter.

The point was about what you said happened with the body and with the person, and what Christ meant when He spoke of "Lazarus" having fallen asleep.

Sure. And I have not strayed from that.

You claimed that the apostles would not have been able to understand that there is a distinction between the body and the person...

Nope. Would not have been able to fully understand. See above.

...and so Christ spoke to them in terms they could understand.

Right, fully understand. Much like the parables. Now don't take that and run off into left field with it (although I feel there's a great possibility you will)... ... but similar to the reason(s) He presented some of His teachings in parables.

But the evidence shows that He DID in fact speak to them about the difference between the body and the person (the soul/spirit). So that fact undermines your claim.

So yes, the evidence does in fact show that He did in fact make the distinction between the body and the person ~ I disagree that he spoke to them about the difference between the two (as in elaborating on exactly what those differences were), if in fact that's what you're saying. So no, my "claim" is not undermined, but only the "claim" that you claim I made, which is not really the claim I made at all. That's the problem.

Nor did Christ make the distinction that you have made (that one part of Lazarus was sleeping, while another part of Lazarus was awake somewhere).

You just pointed out ~ correctly ~ Matthew 10:28, where Jesus made a distinction between body and soul.

Yep but that is not the same as claiming that one part of Lazarus is asleep and another part of Lazarus (the person) is awake.

LOL! See above.

Christ said Lazarus was asleep. Not just the body of Lazarus. Lazarus himself. He never claimed or even indicated that our friend Lazarus is awake somewhere else.

See above.

In absolutely no way do I think that He contradicted Himself.

Great! So I think we can leave it at that.

Grace and peace to you.

[tam]

Peace to you,

First you said that the body is the only thing that Christ said was asleep...

Well, "asleep," in quotes... As I said above, as used here and elsewhere, this "sleep" regarding the body is a euphemism, really, to say that the self is not present and inhabiting/animating their bodies. That may not be the absolute best way to explain it (there might be better verbiage), but it should suffice.

But Christ... said the PERSON sleeps (our friend Lazarus).

Right, that He did, but I think you're not quite understanding. Obviously, you think I don't understand or am contradicting what He said, or both. No, but I'm fine with you thinking that.

That is the opposite of what you said.

No, it's not. I can understand how you see it that way, but no.

To counter that, you then claimed that Christ was just speaking to Mary, Martha, Jairus in terms they could understand (though really He was speaking to the apostles regarding Lazarus)...

Right, and I corrected myself above...

...you also claimed that they understood only that the body was the whole person.

Not... really. I don't think you mean to be putting words in my mouth in this instance, but you kind of are.

Remember the above was all a recap. The following are indeed your words:

But the people He was speaking to (Mary and Martha, concerning Lazarus, and Jairus, concerning his daughter) could not make any distinction between the body and the self. To them, the physical was all there was. - Pinseeker

You are now saying that you were wrong in what you said previously, but then how does that not take away all the reasons you gave for claiming that Christ was speaking only about the body when He said 'sleep'?

Yes, I said Jesus was speaking to them in terms they could understand, and that they did not fully understand... which can have a lot of nuance, frankly, and I didn't fully flesh that out, and didn't and don't intend to do so, because it's really not possible. I'll just say that some things are really beyond human understanding. We cannot attain to the "too-high-for-us" knowledge of God (Psalm 139:6).

Sure there are things we cannot (yet) understand. But this issue is not too hard to understand, except that man has muddied it up, introducing doctrines that are based upon faulty reasoning when examined. When exposed, the only thing left for those men to fall back on becomes 'its beyond understanding'.

But the evidence shows that Christ did in fact speak of the body and the soul (and in your newest post you admit that they probably did understand that... 'at least somewhat'). So He did not refrain from making that distinction 'to speak to them in terms they could understand'. (Paul distinguished between the two as well, and yet still used the term sleep to describe the dead (people) in Christ. Also, the verses from Samuel point to the belief that the body is not all there is to a person.)

Yep, fine.

Then the reasons you gave to support your position have been undermined.



At this point, I might just refer you back to the first post in our exchange, so that you can take away the reasons that you now admit were in error, and then see what might be left of your argument.




Peace still to you and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[myth-one.com]

That being said, at the second resurrection (the resurrection of the dead), some (or many, not my call) of these non-Christians are also resurrected to LIFE.

No, all of those resurrected at the second resurrection are resurrected to physical human life again.

We talk about how pointless an eternal existence in torment would be; but there would also be no point to a second resurrection if everyone resurrected at that time automatically received the second death. Why resurrect people from the dead, just to send them all back to death? Makes no sense.

Exactly!

Instead, the dead (from the second resurrection) are resurrected to judgment and the second death - OR - they are resurrected to life.

No, all resurrected at the second resurrection are deceased nonbelievers who will then face judgment.

That's because all deceased believers were resurrected in the first resurrection at the Second Coming. And at that same time, living believers will be changed to everlasting spirits and meet them in the air:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (I Thessalonians 4:17)

So there are no living human believers at this point. Every believer (dead or alive) have received their rewards. All have been born again as spirits.

Everyone whose name was written in the The Book of Life has received their inheritance, and the book has been cleared.

====================================================

So all resurrected at the second resurrection, which occurs a 1,000 years after the first resurrection, will be resurrected as humans.

They then face judgment.

Following judgment, those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire and suffer their second death.

But the Book of Life was cleared prior to the second resurrection. So why are they checking the book again after judgment?

Something obviously occurred since these nonbelievers were resurrected to cause the book of life to be modified. Otherwise, there would be no reason to check the book again for their names. What happened?

Would God raise these people again as physical bodies only to humiliate them during their judgment before casting them into the lake of fire? Why bother raising them from the dead only to inflict another painful physical death upon them? Once again, this flies in the face of "God is love." If the nonbelievers are being resurrected to be humiliated by judgment before being killed a second time, why not simply allow them to remain dead? Of course, God is love, and He is raising the nonbelievers for a reason! One event prophesied to occur before the end of time is that the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world:

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matthew 24:14)

Billions or trillions of people have died never having the opportunity to accept Jesus as their Savior. These nonbelievers are raised again as mortals during the second resurrection and given that opportunity! They will hear the true good news of the gospel and choose to accept or reject Jesus as their Savior at that time.

Those who accept Jesus during their judgment will have their names written in the Book of Life at that time.

That is why they check the book again following judgment.

=============================================

For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit. (1 Peter 4:6)

[PinSeeker]

Remember the above was all a recap. The following are indeed your words:

But the people He was speaking to (Mary and Martha, concerning Lazarus, and Jairus, concerning his daughter) could not make any distinction between the body and the self. To them, the physical was all there was. - Pinseeker

Yes, and I admitted my mistake ~ at least twice now ~ that He was not speaking to Mary and Martha or Jairus (to whom I would maintain that the physical was all there was. What's happening here now (or at least seems to be) is ~ and I take the blame for this, or at least did until I clearly corrected myself ~ you seem to be continuing to attribute what I said about Mary, Martha, and Jairus to the apostles. You should be able to drop this, but if you cannot, I don't really care.

You are now saying that you were wrong in what you said previously, but then how does that not take away all the reasons you gave for claiming that Christ was speaking only about the body when He said 'sleep'?

Because we apparently disagree on what Christ really meant by the "sleep" of death. Honestly, though, at this point, I don't really care whether we really do or not. I think my explanation above was quite sufficient, but if you do not, or if you disagree with it, so be it.

Then the reasons you gave to support your position have been undermined.

I appreciate your opinion.

At this point, I might just refer you back to the first post in our exchange, so that you can take away the reasons that you now admit were in error, and then see what might be left of your argument.

No need.

Grace and peace to you.

[PinSeeker]

...all of those resurrected at the second resurrection are resurrected to physical human life again.

Yes!

...all resurrected at the second resurrection are deceased nonbelievers who will then face judgment.

No...

...all resurrected at the second resurrection, which occurs a 1,000 years after the first resurrection, will be resurrected as humans. They then face judgment.

Well, after the millennium (which is going on now and is not a literal 1000 365-day periods) has ended. But yes.

Following judgment, those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire and suffer their second death.

Yes...

But the Book of Life was cleared prior to the second resurrection. So why are they checking the book again after judgment?

No! The Book of Life, with all the names of God's elect written in it, was written before the foundation of the world.

So why are they checking the book again after judgment?

Well they (the three Persons of the triune God) aren't. There's no need.

Something obviously occurred since these nonbelievers were resurrected to cause the book of life to be modified. Otherwise, there would be no reason to check the book again for their names. What happened?

Well nothing happened, because it was not modified. God does not make mistakes.

Why bother raising them from the dead only to inflict another painful physical death upon them?

LOL! He doesn't. This is a terrible misunderstanding of what the second death is.

Once again, this flies in the face of "God is love."

So no. God's love requires that sin be punished.

Those who accept Jesus during their judgment will have their names written in the Book of Life at that time.

The names of those who accept Jesus during the Millennium were written in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world, as I said above, referring to the following:

• Philippians 4:3, regarding believers ~ "Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life."

• Revelation 3:5, regarding believers ~ "The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life."

• Revelation 13:8, regarding unbelievers ~ ",,, all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

• Revelation 17:8, regarding unbelievers ~ "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come."

• Revelation 20:15, regarding unbelievers ~ "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

• Revelation 21:27, regarding believers ~ "But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life."

...they check the book again following judgment.

Nope. No need.

Grace and peace to you, myth-one.

[Eloi]

The only way to understand human death is the cessation of life.

When the Bible speaks of resurrection "of both the righteous and the unrighteous" (Acts 24:15) it is saying that people who were dead will regain life, they will live again, they are going to get a new life back after losing another one before . It is not possible to speak of recovering life in the resurrection, if some supposed part of the dead were still literally alive.

In the Scriptures, as understood from common sense, life is the opposite of death. A person is either alive or dead ... THERE IS NO LITERAL INTERMEDIATE STATE. Look at the following biblical texts where life is contrasted with death:

John 11:25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life ..."

Rev. 1:17 When I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, 18 and the living one, and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of the Grave.
... 2:8 “And to the angel of the congregation in Smyrʹna write: These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ who became dead and came to life again ... "

Rom. 14:9 For to this end Christ died and came to life again, so that he might be Lord over both the dead and the living.
... 6:9 For we know that Christ, now that he has been raised up from the dead, dies no more; death is no longer master over him. 10 For the death that he died, he died with reference to sin once for all time, but the life that he lives, he lives with reference to God.

To understand the clear contrast between living and being dead, analyze one of the previous examples that applies to the case of the death of Jesus Christ:

Rev. 1:18

και εγενομην νεκρος __ I became dead
και ιδου __ but Look!
ζων ειμι __ I am living
εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων __ forever and ever

When Jesus mentions these words, he does not mean to say that he had recovered a physical body, but that he had regained the life that he had lost when he was killed. Some people cannot understand the teachings related to the ransom and death and resurrection of Jesus, because no one has ever helped them correctly understand what in the Bible is called "death."

True Christianity is based on the actual death of Jesus, and that God brought him back to life.

[tam]

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #64]

Feel free to ignore this post, but I will put it here just in case we can clear up any confusion, because I do not understand how you can continue to make the same point even when the support you provided for your point proved incorrect:

I said this:

And besides all of this, even Christ likened death to a sleep which one would need to be awakened from. Not a conscious awareness. A sleep.

You said this:

Regarding the physical body, yes. The actual person (and his or her conscious awareness) is... somewhere else,

I responded:

That makes no sense. Christ did not say that the flesh sleeps. He said "our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep". Lazarus, the actual person. Not his body, but he, himself.

You responded:

But the people He was speaking to (Mary and Martha, concerning Lazarus, and Jairus, concerning his daughter) could not make any distinction between the body and the self. To them, the physical was all there was. He was speaking to them in terms they could understand. Some did, like Paul, as stated above, but that was after Christ's resurrection.



It is this last response that you have admitted was incorrect. So then there is (to date) no response to my last post above (in green).



Peace again to you, and again no pressure to respond.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to Eloi in post #66]

"Common sense" ~ understanding things only from a worldly perspective (and then of course applying that to the great I AM) ~ is precisely the problem.

Grace and peace to you.

[Eloi]

[Replying to tam in post #2]
I totally agree with you in this. When Jesus told Martha "Your brother will rise", what did she tell back?

John 11:24 (...) “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.”

She did not believe that any conscious part of her brother was alive in heaven or elsewhere, but rather relied on the same hope that the angel had spoken of to Daniel in ancient times:

Dan. 12:13 “But as for you, go on to the end. You will rest, but you will stand up for your lot at the end of the days.”

[Tcg]

When Jesus mentions these words, he does not mean to say that he had recovered a physical body, but that he had regained the life that he had lost when he was killed.

Jesus assured his disciples that he indeed did have a physical body after the resurrection:

Luke 24:37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

To make sure they understood this, he also ate some fish in their presence. How could a spirit being eat fish?

Luke 24:40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.

Tcg