#5 Jesus on Hell Matthew 25:31-46

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#5 Jesus on Hell Matthew 25:31-46

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https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Verse 46 says they will go away to eternal punishment but the righteous to eternal life.

If 'go away to eternal punishment' means annihilation then why presume 'righteous to eternal life' means eternal life?

There are two eternal destinations, hell and heaven being expressed in verse 46.

Isn't it biased to say eternal punishment is not eternal but eternal life is eternal life?

According to those that believe in annihilation and that the Bible doesn't teach hell, why do they interpret the first half of verse 46 as non-literal and the second half as literally?
Last edited by Wootah on Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: #5 Jesus on Hell Matthew 25:31-46

Post #51

Post by PinSeeker »

tam wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:05 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:52 pm
tam wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:45 pm Yes, 'the dead know nothing' contradicts the claim that people are in torment in 'hell' (Sheol/Hades/the world of the dead) right now.
If it's misread ~ put in an entirely different context ~ in the way you and others do, yes.

Grace and peace to you.
No, Pinseeker it isn't.
Yes, Tam, it is.
tam wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:05 pm The context is as follows:

For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;

they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.


The living know they will die is contrasted with the dead know nothing (meaning all who are dead). And we know that Solomon is talking about the same group of people for both the living and the dead. The same group of people who comprise the living (who know they will die), also comprise the dead (who know nothing) once they are dead.

AND,

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.
And the point yet again is, your context is incomplete ~ and too much at the same time, really ~ and not the proper context at all, something very different that that of the writer of Ecclesiastes. The complete context is that what the writer of Ecclesiastes is talking about is life under the sun, and for the dead, they no longer know anything of it in the sense of experiencing it. The people still alive at any given time know they will die and enter into the same state of no longer experiencing temporal life (life under the sun). And the people who are still alive and here under the sun forget the ones who have died ~ not in the sense that they do not remember them, it is not a mere forgetting about them or who they were, but no longer loving and serving them, in the same sense that we (Christians anyway) remember God and His mercy and compassion by loving and serving Him.

SO... his exhortation is, while we are here under the sun, we should do what we are called to do with all our might ~ in the exact same sense that our chief end is to glorify God and enjoy Him even now, and, in whatever we do, to work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord we will receive the inheritance as our reward, because we are serving the Lord Christ. (Colossians 3).

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Re: #5 Jesus on Hell Matthew 25:31-46

Post #52

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PinSeeker wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:56 pm
tam wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:05 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:52 pm
tam wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:45 pm Yes, 'the dead know nothing' contradicts the claim that people are in torment in 'hell' (Sheol/Hades/the world of the dead) right now.
If it's misread ~ put in an entirely different context ~ in the way you and others do, yes.

Grace and peace to you.
No, Pinseeker it isn't.
Yes, Tam, it is.
tam wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:05 pm The context is as follows:

For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;

they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.


The living know they will die is contrasted with the dead know nothing (meaning all who are dead). And we know that Solomon is talking about the same group of people for both the living and the dead. The same group of people who comprise the living (who know they will die), also comprise the dead (who know nothing) once they are dead.

AND,

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.
And the point yet again is, your context is incomplete ~ and too much at the same time, really ~ and not the proper context at all, something very different that that of the writer of Ecclesiastes. The complete context is that what the writer of Ecclesiastes is talking about is life under the sun, and for the dead, they no longer know anything of it in the sense of experiencing it. The people still alive at any given time know they will die and enter into the same state of no longer experiencing temporal life (life under the sun). And the people who are still alive and here under the sun forget the ones who have died ~ not in the sense that they do not remember them, it is not a mere forgetting about them or who they were, but no longer loving and serving them, in the same sense that we (Christians anyway) remember God and His mercy and compassion by loving and serving Him.

SO... his exhortation is, while we are here under the sun, we should do what we are called to do with all our might ~ in the exact same sense that our chief end is to glorify God and enjoy Him even now, and, in whatever we do, to work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord we will receive the inheritance as our reward, because we are serving the Lord Christ. (Colossians 3).

Grace and peace to you.
And yet he clarifies with verse 10 that there is no knowledge IN the realm of the dead. He is not just talking about there being no knowledge of what is happening on the earth after you die, but plain old 'no knowledge' IN the realm of the dead, as well as no working, no planning, no wisdom... IN... the realm of the dead.


And besides all of this, even Christ likened death to a sleep which one would need to be awakened from. Not a conscious awareness. A sleep.



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Re: #5 Jesus on Hell Matthew 25:31-46

Post #53

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tam wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:21 pm And yet he clarifies with verse 10 that there is no knowledge IN the realm of the dead. He is not just talking about there being no knowledge of what is happening on the earth after you die, but plain old 'no knowledge' IN the realm of the dead, as well as no working, no planning, no wisdom... IN... the realm of the dead.
Well, right, know more experience of life under the sun. That's exactly what I said, and will continue to say. When people pass from life under the sun, they experience it ~ know it ~ no more.
tam wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:21 pm And besides all of this, even Christ likened death to a sleep which one would need to be awakened from. Not a conscious awareness. A sleep.
Regarding the physical body, yes. The actual person (and his or her conscious awareness) is... somewhere else, for a time (like, again, the thief crucified on Jesus's right). Look at Matthew 9 again with me... and Mark 5 and Luke 8; Matthew, Mark, and Luke document the same event. The ruler (Jairus) comes to Jesus and kneels before Him and says, “My daughter has just died, but come and lay your hand on her, and she will live.” To him, obviously, bodily life is all there is. Jesus is talking about the girl's body, when He says, "...the girl is not dead but sleeping.” All this time, though, the girl is indeed dead, and it should be easy to discern that the body is "asleep" ~ not animated by the true self, which is, well, somewhere else, just as (yet again) the thief crucified on Jesus's right was. Let me make this even more clear:

Jesus here used the term “sleep” figuratively, in view of the fact that this death was to be a temporary heartache. He then raised the twelve-year-old girl from her state of death. Luke says that her “spirit returned” and she rose up immediately (Luke 8:55). Another term in the New Testament for “sleep” is koimaomai (a form of koimao). While koimaomai may refer on occasion to normal sleep (Matthew 28:13; Luke 22:45), predominately this word is used figuratively for the “sleep” of death (see Matthew 27:52; 1 Corinthians 15:20; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15). This metaphorical use of “sleep,” to describe the death of a body, is ancient. It is found in classical Greek (e.g., Homer, Illiad1; Sophocles; et al.) and in the Septuagint (e.g., 2 Kings and 2 Chronicles, as in “he slept with his fathers” ~ 2 Kings 14:16).

Further, when the term “sleep” is used to depict the death of a person, the allusion is always to the disposition of the body, not the soul. There is no passage in the Scriptures that reflects the notion that one’s soul sleeps (i.e., is unconscious) in death. The prophet Daniel affirmed that those who “sleep [katheudonton] in the dust of the earth shall awake” (Daniel 12:2). Note that the part of man that “sleeps” is that which is deposited in the “dust of the earth.” This obviously is a reference to the physical body. The awakening, then, is a reference to the bodily resurrection, immediately preceded by the return of the self to the physical body. Jesus once said to his disciples: “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep (kekoimetai — the perfect, passive of koimao); but I go that I may awake him out of sleep” (John 11:11). In view of the subsequent context, the “awakening” clearly refers to the resurrection of Lazarus’ body (vv. 43-44). The verb koimao derives from the root keimai, “to lie down.” In death, it is only the “body” that lies down (not the soul, the true self). Hence, it is the body that sleeps.

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Re: #5 Jesus on Hell Matthew 25:31-46

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Post by tam »

Peace to you,
PinSeeker wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:05 pm
tam wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:21 pm And yet he clarifies with verse 10 that there is no knowledge IN the realm of the dead. He is not just talking about there being no knowledge of what is happening on the earth after you die, but plain old 'no knowledge' IN the realm of the dead, as well as no working, no planning, no wisdom... IN... the realm of the dead.
Well, right, know more experience of life under the sun. That's exactly what I said, and will continue to say. When people pass from life under the sun, they experience it ~ know it ~ no more.
No more experience of anything.

You're qualifying the statement, but there is no knowledge (period) in the realm of the dead. Because the people are dead... aka... asleep (at least for the first death).

tam wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:21 pm And besides all of this, even Christ likened death to a sleep which one would need to be awakened from. Not a conscious awareness. A sleep.
Regarding the physical body, yes. The actual person (and his or her conscious awareness) is... somewhere else,
That makes no sense. Christ did not say that the flesh sleeps. He said "our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep". Lazarus, the actual person. Not his body, but he, himself.

for a time (like, again, the thief crucified on Jesus's right). Look at Matthew 9 again with me... and Mark 5 and Luke 8; Matthew, Mark, and Luke document the same event. The ruler (Jairus) comes to Jesus and kneels before Him and says, “My daughter has just died, but come and lay your hand on her, and she will live.” To him, obviously, bodily life is all there is. Jesus is talking about the girl's body, when He says, "...the girl is not dead but sleeping.” All this time, though, the girl is indeed dead, and it should be easy to discern that the body is "asleep" ~ not animated by the true self, which is, well, somewhere else, just as (yet again) the thief crucified on Jesus's right was.


It is exactly the opposite, Pinseeker.

Again, 'the girl is not dead, but sleeping.' Not the body of the girl, but the actual person. She, herself.

Let me make this even more clear:

Jesus here used the term “sleep” figuratively,


Indeed. But in referring to the person. Not the flesh. The person, themselves.

We are not our bodies, as you have stated also.

Christ said our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep. Lazarus, the person he truly is.


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Re: #5 Jesus on Hell Matthew 25:31-46

Post #55

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tam wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:18 pm No more experience of anything.
Under the sun, yes. That's the entire context of Ecclesiastes.
tam wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:18 pm You're qualifying the statement...
I'm doing no such thing.
tam wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:18 pm ...there is no knowledge (period) in the realm of the dead.
Nope. No more experience, enjoyment or otherwise, of life under the sun.
tam wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:21 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:39 pm
tam wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:21 pm And besides all of this, even Christ likened death to a sleep which one would need to be awakened from. Not a conscious awareness. A sleep.
Regarding the physical body, yes. The actual person (and his or her conscious awareness) is... somewhere else,
That makes no sense.
I get that it doesn't to you, but it should. Paul made this distinction in talking about sin in Romans 7. He finally calls himself wretched, and asks, "Who will deliver me from this body of death?" In that question he is acknowledging that his true self and his physical body ~ although closely associated, of course; the body is animated by the self ~ are two different things, and such is the case for all of us. And this will be the case after the resurrection, too, just like Jesus ~ except then, like Him, we will be free of sin.
tam wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:21 pm Christ did not say that the flesh sleeps... He said "our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep"... "the girl is not dead, but sleeping"... The person, themselves...
But the people He was speaking to (Mary and Martha, concerning Lazarus, and Jairus, concerning his daughter) could not make any distinction between the body and the self. To them, the physical was all there was. He was speaking to them in terms they could understand. Some did, like Paul, as stated above, but that was after Christ's resurrection.

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Re: #5 Jesus on Hell Matthew 25:31-46

Post #56

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
[Replying to PinSeeker in post #55]

I get that it doesn't to you, but it should. Paul made this distinction in talking about sin in Romans 7. He finally calls himself wretched, and asks, "Who will deliver me from this body of death?" In that question he is acknowledging that his true self and his physical body ~ although closely associated, of course; the body is animated by the self ~ are two different things, and such is the case for all of us. And this will be the case after the resurrection, too, just like Jesus ~ except then, like Him, we will be free of sin.
Yes, Paul is causally making a distinction, that you for some reason think the rest of the apostles were neither aware of, nor even able to comprehend if Christ had taught this to them. How does that make sense, especially considering the following:

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.


Right there Christ makes the very distinction that you are suggesting these people did not and/or could not have understood.


Note also that Paul uses the term sleep for those who have died in Christ - and he clearly (as you have pointed out) makes a distinction between the flesh and the person.


All of these things undermine what you have claimed.
tam wrote: ↑Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:21 pm
Christ did not say that the flesh sleeps... He said "our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep"... "the girl is not dead, but sleeping"... The person, themselves...
But the people He was speaking to (Mary and Martha, concerning Lazarus, and Jairus, concerning his daughter) could not make any distinction between the body and the self. To them, the physical was all there was. He was speaking to them in terms they could understand. Some did, like Paul, as stated above, but that was after Christ's resurrection.
Christ was speaking to the apostles when He said "Our friend Lazarus..." Not that this means Mary and Martha could not have understood. And of course in addition to Matt 10:28, there is also 1Samuel 28 (where Saul asks the witch of Endor to bring up the spirit of Samuel). So this is not some unheard of concept as you are supposing.

**

Christ did not make the distinction that you are making. He simply said our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep. He did not state that one part of Lazarus has fallen asleep, but another part of Lazarus is conscious and awake. That is something you are adding (or it is something that other men added and you are believing).

Nothing wrong in letting something go that has been shown to be false, Pinseeker (or anyone else reading). Best to tear everything down to the cornerstone (Christ) and then let Him build us back up on Him. Never mind what men teach, never mind all the doctrines that they push.

Just listen to Christ and build your house (your faith) on HIM, and then remain IN HIM.



Peace again to you, and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: #5 Jesus on Hell Matthew 25:31-46

Post #57

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tam wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:57 pm Yes, Paul is causally making a distinction, that you for some reason think the rest of the apostles were neither aware of...
His distinction is not casual. Nothing in God's word is casual in any sense. All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for... well, you know, I'm sure. And I said nothing of the apostles being able or unable to comprehend anything Christ had taught them.
tam wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:57 pm Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.


Right there Christ makes the very distinction that you are suggesting these people did not and/or could not have understood.
Yes, Christ made the distinction also, so at the very least, Paul's distinction was not "casual." But what I really want to get at here is, some of Christ's disciples became, certainly, apostles, but not until after His resurrection and ascension. There were things that Christ said to His disciples ~ even the ones who later became apostles ~ that they did not fully understand when Christ said these things, and Scripture brings this out; Luke 18:31-34 is a prime example:
  • "...He said to them, 'See, we are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written about the Son of Man by the prophets will be accomplished. For He will be delivered over to the Gentiles and will be mocked and shamefully treated and spit upon. And after flogging Him, they will kill Him, and on the third day He will rise.' But they understood none of these things. This saying was hidden from them, and they did not grasp what was said."
But, when they became apostles ~ when they were filled with the Holy Spirit (at Pentecost) ~ they did, as He brought to remembrance what Christ had said, as Christ said He would.

What I have said is not undermined in any way. Thank you for your thoughts. Grace and peace to you, Tammy.

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Re: #5 Jesus on Hell Matthew 25:31-46

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Peace to you,
PinSeeker wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:11 pm
tam wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:57 pm Yes, Paul is causally making a distinction, that you for some reason think the rest of the apostles were neither aware of...
His distinction is not casual. Nothing in God's word is casual in any sense. All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for... well, you know, I'm sure. And I said nothing of the apostles being able or unable to comprehend anything Christ had taught them.
You did:
But the people He was speaking to (Mary and Martha, concerning Lazarus, and Jairus, concerning his daughter) could not make any distinction between the body and the self. To them, the physical was all there was. He was speaking to them in terms they could understand. Some did, like Paul, as stated above, but that was after Christ's resurrection.
Perhaps you are going to say that you meant only Mary and Martha and Jairus, but Christ was not speaking to Mary and Martha or Jairus when He said, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep"... He was speaking to His apostles.

And if the apostles WERE able to comprehend a distinction between the body and the spirit, then why would Christ not have explained that he meant only the body was sleeping? If they COULD understand, why would He have allowed them to continue to believe a false thing?

tam wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:57 pm Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.


Right there Christ makes the very distinction that you are suggesting these people did not and/or could not have understood.
Yes, Christ made the distinction also, so at the very least, Paul's distinction was not "casual."


So,

A) Yes, Christ makes the distinction... therefore, the claim that Christ was only speaking to them in terms that they could understand... is undermined by the very fact that Christ did make that distinction.

B) Thoug this is entirely beside the point, by casual, I mean something already understood being mentioned. Paul makes a casual reference to the brother of the Lord (meaning that it was already known that the Lord had a brother; he did not have to first explain to people that the Lord had a brother).

But what I really want to get at here is, some of Christ's disciples became, certainly, apostles, but not until after His resurrection and ascension. There were things that Christ said to His disciples ~ even the ones who later became apostles ~ that they did not fully understand when Christ said these things, and Scripture brings this out; Luke 18:31-34 is a prime example:
There are things He said that the apostles and disciples did not understand, but there is no reason to think this is one of those things, for reasons mentioned in the previous post. Note that even in the example you cite Christ still TAUGHT the truth, even if people were not going to understand it until later. Nor did Christ make the distinction that you have made (that one part of Lazarus was sleeping, while another part of Lazarus was awake somewhere).


Thank you for your thoughts. Grace and peace to you, Tammy.
Peace also to you.

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Re: #5 Jesus on Hell Matthew 25:31-46

Post #59

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tam wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:09 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:11 pm
tam wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:57 pm Yes, Paul is causally making a distinction, that you for some reason think the rest of the apostles were neither aware of...
His distinction is not casual. Nothing in God's word is casual in any sense. All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for... well, you know, I'm sure. And I said nothing of the apostles being able or unable to comprehend anything Christ had taught them.
You did...
Actually, you're right, I did. And I stand by it. For some reason, I had in my head that none of His disciples were apostles until Pentecost, but that's not the case. Matthew 10 is where they became apostles, as Jesus "called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every affliction" (verse 1) So, I correct myself: yes, He was speaking to the twelve, the apostles, in Matthew 10, but I stand by what I said. None of them were yet filled the Holy Spirit, which didn't happen until Pentecost (Acts 2), as I said. There were things that Jesus said that they did not fully comprehend until then, and yes, they probably did understand Jesus's distinction at least somewhat in Matthew 10, but that's really beside the point, which is that there is a clear distinction made by both Jesus and Paul between the body and who we actually are. When Jesus says "our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep," He's really saying a couple of things, one that Lazarus is still our friend (he still exists), but that his body is "asleep," which is to say the our friend Lazarus (and Jairus's daughter) were not present and inhabiting/animating their bodies and that they're actual selves were elsewhere. And yet again, we know this is true because Jesus told the thief crucified on His right would be with Him that day in paradise (Luke 23:43). And Paul was able to make the same distinction Jesus made between the soul ~ the true self ~ and the body in Romans 7, as I pointed out.
tam wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:09 pm Nor did Christ make the distinction that you have made (that one part of Lazarus was sleeping, while another part of Lazarus was awake somewhere).
You just pointed out ~ correctly ~ Matthew 10:28, where Jesus made a distinction between body and soul. And He did the same ~ He did not contradict Himself, as you seem to think, although possibly not even realizing it ~ regarding Lazarus in John 11 (“Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.”), and He did the same regarding Jairus's daughter in Matthew 9, Mark 5, and Luke 8 ("She is not dead, but sleeping"). The distinction is still there, though not outward. The body of Lazarus and the body of Jairus's daughter were "sleeping," which is to say their bodies were not inhabited/animated by their true selves.

Again, thank you for your thoughts. Grace and peace to you, Tammy.[/quote]

Peace also to you.
[/quote]

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Re: #5 Jesus on Hell Matthew 25:31-46

Post #60

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Okay Pinseeker (peace to you), lets review quick, because you seem to have lost track of the conversation:

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #59]

First you said that the body is the only thing that Christ said was asleep - but that the actual person would be conscious somewhere. But Christ did not say the body sleeps. He said the PERSON sleeps (our friend Lazarus). That is the opposite of what you said.

To counter that, you then claimed that Christ was just speaking to Mary, Martha, Jairus in terms they could understand (though really He was speaking to the apostles regarding Lazarus), and you also claimed that they understood only that the body was the whole person.

But the evidence shows that Christ did in fact speak of the body and the soul (and in your newest post you admit that they probably did understand that... 'at least somewhat'). So He did not refrain from making that distinction 'to speak to them in terms they could understand'. (Paul distinguished between the two as well, and yet still used the term sleep to describe the dead (people) in Christ. Also, the verses from Samuel point to the belief that the body is not all there is to a person.)


So from your newest post:
PinSeeker wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:36 pm
tam wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:09 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:11 pm
tam wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:57 pm Yes, Paul is causally making a distinction, that you for some reason think the rest of the apostles were neither aware of...
His distinction is not casual. Nothing in God's word is casual in any sense. All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for... well, you know, I'm sure. And I said nothing of the apostles being able or unable to comprehend anything Christ had taught them.
You did...
Actually, you're right, I did. And I stand by it. For some reason, I had in my head that none of His disciples were apostles until Pentecost, but that's not the case. Matthew 10 is where they became apostles, as Jesus "called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every affliction" (verse 1) So, I correct myself: yes, He was speaking to the twelve, the apostles, in Matthew 10, but I stand by what I said. None of them were yet filled the Holy Spirit, which didn't happen until Pentecost (Acts 2), as I said. There were things that Jesus said that they did not fully comprehend until then, and yes, they probably did understand Jesus's distinction at least somewhat in Matthew 10, but that's really beside the point,
No, that (the bold) is EXACTLY the point. Everything you're about to go on about from this point onward is beside the point.

The apostles did understand that there was a distinction... and so there was no reason for Christ to have had to speak to them as if they did not (and were unable to) understand that there is a distinction between the body and the person.

So that when Christ said "our friend Lazarus is asleep", there is no reason to think that He meant only the body of Lazarus, and not Lazarus, himself, the person.
which is that there is a clear distinction made by both Jesus and Paul between the body and who we actually are.


That is not and never was the point under discussion, Pinseeker.

The point was about what you said happened with the body and with the person, and what Christ meant when He spoke of "Lazarus" having fallen asleep.

You claimed that the apostles would not have been able to understand that there is a distinction between the body and the person, and so Christ spoke to them in terms they could understand. But the evidence shows that He DID in fact speak to them about the difference between the body and the person (the soul/spirit). So that fact undermines your claim.
tam wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:09 pm Nor did Christ make the distinction that you have made (that one part of Lazarus was sleeping, while another part of Lazarus was awake somewhere).
You just pointed out ~ correctly ~ Matthew 10:28, where Jesus made a distinction between body and soul.


Yep but that is not the same as claiming that one part of Lazarus is asleep and another part of Lazarus (the person) is awake.

Christ said Lazarus was asleep. Not just the body of Lazarus. Lazarus himself. He never claimed or even indicated that our friend Lazarus is awake somewhere else.
And He did the same ~ He did not contradict Himself, as you seem to think, although possibly not even realizing it ~ regarding Lazarus in John 11 (“Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.”),
In absolutely no way do I think that He contradicted Himself.


Peace again to you.

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