#4 Bible on Hell - Revelation 14:9-13

[Wootah]

9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

The above seems to imply:
- hell is eternal torment.
- tormented and smoke of their torment rises forever and ever.
- No rest day or night.
- This implies that death is not non-existence, one group will rest and one group will not rest.

Does anyone disagree that this implies conscious eternal torment with no rest day or night?

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #49]
Thank you for your thoughts, myth-one. Grace and peace to you.

God inspired the scriptures I used to support my posts.

Thank God.

[tam]

Peace to you,

The "rest of" a group cannot mean the total group. It cannot.

That's totally not what I said. You totally misread my comment.

Did I? I apologize then.

My goodness, I said, Tammy, that the rest of the dead should be seen as a group, and then in the next sentence, my very point is that the total group is larger than that first group ~ the rest of the dead is a group on its own, but part of ~ a subset of, if you will ~ the total group.

Okay.

So that the first group "group A" are those who "came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years"... and the second group "group B" are "the rest of the dead who came to life when the thousand years were ended".

Hey, I get what "threw you for a loop," so to speak... that I said "until the thousand years are finished," which is what John says about the rest of the dead, but I wasn't really quoting him on that and didn't mean what I said to be taken in exactly the same light as what he said in Revelation 20:5.

Gotcha : )

The 'rest of the dead' CANNOT be referring to anyone in the first group (those who came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years). "They" (from 'they came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years) are necessarily excluded from the group being referred to as 'the rest of' the dead.

I totally agree.

Okay.

But beyond that, the two groups ~ yes, two groups of folks, the one referred to in Revelation 20:4 and the one referred to in Revelation 20:5 ~ together make up one group... the righteous in Christ.

Ah, on this I must disagree (as I think you know). The first group (those who came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years) are the dead in Christ (Christians who die before Christ returns). The second group (the rest of the dead who do not come to life until the thousand years are ended), are non-Christian; these ones take part in the second resurrection (the resurrection of the dead), at Rev 20:12-15. But we have been through that before, and there is probably not much more to share on that matter than what has already been shared between us (at least not at this time).



Peace again to you!

[PinSeeker]

The "rest of" a group cannot mean the total group. It cannot.

That's totally not what I said. You totally misread my comment.

Did I? I apologize then.

No apology necessary, really. We just "missed each other" on that, so to speak.

But beyond that, the two groups ~ yes, two groups of folks, the one referred to in Revelation 20:4 and the one referred to in Revelation 20:5 ~ together make up one group... the righteous in Christ.

Ah, on this I must disagree (as I think you know).

Oh yes, I'm well aware of your disagreement on this.

The first group (those who came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years) are the dead in Christ (Christians who die before Christ returns). The second group (the rest of the dead who do not come to life until the thousand years are ended), are non-Christian; these ones take part in the second resurrection (the resurrection of the dead), at Rev 20:12-15.

Nope. All (members of both groups) are in Christ, and in this sense they are, together, one group. The first group are the martyrs at the beginning of the church age, and the second group are those that come to life over the course of the Millennium ~ those who are born again of the Spirit in their lifetimes and as a group (not as individuals, although it certainly happens individually), the fullness of the body of Christ is not complete "until the thousand years are ended," exactly as Revelation 20:5 states.

The second resurrection of Revelation 20:12-15 is a general resurrection of all ~ those in Christ (separated to His right; "the wheat") and those not in Christ (those separated to His left; the "tares") as depicted by Christ Jesus in Matthew 13 and 25 ~ else they could not all, "great and small, standing before the throne" and thus be "judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done," as those verses clearly state happens.

Yes, I know you disagree, Tammy, but I think one must say, even despite possibly remaining in disagreement, that this reading of Revelation 20:4-6 "makes sense." But then the tipping point is that many, many other passages ~ both Old Testament (Daniel, Ezekiel, and Isaiah, but many others) and New (Romans, 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, Galatians, Philippians, James, and others, including other passages in Revelation itself) ~ correlate perfectly with what I'm saying. Ah, but you will say the same thing. So be it.

But we have been through that before...

That we have, and will again, I'm sure.

Grace and peace to you.

[tam]

Peace to you!

The "rest of" a group cannot mean the total group. It cannot.

That's totally not what I said. You totally misread my comment.

Did I? I apologize then.

No apology necessary, really. We just "missed each other" on that, so to speak.

Thank you.

The first group (those who came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years) are the dead in Christ (Christians who die before Christ returns). The second group (the rest of the dead who do not come to life until the thousand years are ended), are non-Christian; these ones take part in the second resurrection (the resurrection of the dead), at Rev 20:12-15.

Nope. All (members of both groups) are in Christ, and in this sense they are, together, one group. The first group are the martyrs at the beginning of the church age, and the second group are those that come to life over the course of the Millennium ~ those who are born again of the Spirit in their lifetimes and as a group (not as individuals, although it certainly happens individually), the fullness of the body of Christ is not complete "until the thousand years are ended," exactly as Revelation 20:5 states.

I'm just going to point something out here (after having read one of eloi's threads):

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about [Jesus] and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

Those who were beheaded for their testimony about Christ, FIRST testified about Christ (how else could they be beheaded FOR their testimony), THEN they were beheaded, and THEN they came to life (the first resurrection).

They had already testified and been beheaded for their testimony, before coming to life (as described here at the first resurrection).

How does that mesh with what you are saying? It sounds to me as though your belief states that they came to life first, then testified to Christ, then were executed.

The second resurrection of Revelation 20:12-15 is a general resurrection of all ~ those in Christ (separated to His right; "the wheat") and those not in Christ (those separated to His left; the "tares") as depicted by Christ Jesus in Matthew 13 and 25 ~ else they could not all, "great and small, standing before the throne" and thus be "judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done," as those verses clearly state happens.

Revelation 20:12-15 does not state that all come to stand before the throne and are judged according to their books.

Revelation 20:12-15 is speaking only about the dead.

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

There are no Christians in view here.

Christians are not among the dead (they had already come to life - in both senses of that phrase).

Yes, I know you disagree, Tammy, but I think one must say, even despite possibly remaining in disagreement, that this reading of Revelation 20:4-6 "makes sense."

Not when all things are considered, no, I am sorry, but it does not. At the very least, the above questions and discrepancies remain outstanding.

As well, as you know, many people claim many conflicting things "make sense", using various books and phrases in the bible to support their conflicting doctrines, or even making the claim that this is what the bible really says 'as a whole'... and yet they are still in conflict, sometimes with each others, but also with Christ.

The only way to KNOW what is true (not just what one thinks "makes sense") is to listen to and learn from the One who IS the Truth, the only One who can lead us into ALL truth.



Peace again to you and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[PinSeeker]

I'm just going to point something out here (after having read one of eloi's threads)...

Uh-oh.

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about [Jesus] and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

Those who were beheaded for their testimony about Christ, FIRST testified about Christ (how else could they be beheaded FOR their testimony), THEN they were beheaded, and THEN they came to life (the first resurrection). They had already testified and been beheaded for their testimony, before coming to life (as described here at the first resurrection).

Yeah, I, um, disagree. What the coming to life means here seems to be the real issue. Plus, John is writing about his dream, which is in view of everything in past tense (John bore witness to all that he saw [Revelation 1:2]).

How does that mesh with what you are saying?

It doesn't. Like I said, I disagree, so that necessarily means it does not mesh with what I'm saying.

It sounds to me as though your belief states that they came to life first, then testified to Christ, then were executed.

Yes, this would make them martyrs.

The second resurrection of Revelation 20:12-15 is a general resurrection of all ~ those in Christ (separated to His right; "the wheat") and those not in Christ (those separated to His left; the "tares") as depicted by Christ Jesus in Matthew 13 and 25 ~ else they could not all, "great and small, standing before the throne" and thus be "judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done," as those verses clearly state happens.

Revelation 20:12-15 does not state that all come to stand before the throne and are judged according to their books.

Disagree. The events of these verses occur immediately following Jesus's return and the general resurrection, in which all who experience the first death are resurrected. And, depending on the outcome of the Judgment, some will enter into eternal life and others into judgment

Revelation 20:12-15 is speaking only about the dead.

Sure. See above.

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

There are no Christians in view here.

Disagree.

Christians are not among the dead (they had already come to life - in both senses of that phrase).

They are among the dead, the first death sufferers, who are no longer dead, having been resurrected from the first death. Along with unbelievers.

Yes, I know you disagree, Tammy, but I think one must say, even despite possibly remaining in disagreement, that this reading of Revelation 20:4-6 "makes sense."

Not when all things are considered, no, I am sorry, but it does not.

Well, after your consideration, sure. But in this, I'm just saying that outside of your personal consideration, it does indeed make sense. It does. I mean, outside of my personal consideration, yours makes sense, too. All that we can say to each other, really, is, "I disagree."

At the very least, the above questions and discrepancies remain outstanding.

To you. Sure.

As well, as you know, many people claim many conflicting things "make sense", using various books and phrases in the bible to support their conflicting doctrines, or even making the claim that this is what the bible really says 'as a whole'... and yet they are still in conflict, sometimes with each others, but also with Christ.

Sure.

The only way to KNOW what is true (not just what one thinks "makes sense") is to listen to and learn from the One who IS the Truth, the only One who can lead us into ALL truth.

Yeah, well, I say the same to you. We disagree on what we're hearing, not Who we're listening to.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

All (members of both groups) are in Christ, and in this sense they are, together, one group.

So all resurrected in the first and second resurrection are in Christ.

The second resurrection of Revelation 20:12-15 is a general resurrection of all ~ those in Christ (separated to His right; "the wheat") and those not in Christ (those separated to His left; . . .

You are contradicting yourself.

You first claimed that all are one group and all (members of both sub-groups) are in Christ.

Now you are including those not in Christ in the second resurrection.

How can someone be in Christ and not in Christ (as you claim) at the same time?

[PinSeeker]

All (members of both groups) are in Christ, and in this sense they are, together, one group.

So all resurrected in the first and second resurrection are in Christ.

No, that's not what I was referring to at all, myth-one. Well, only half way, I guess; only those who have experienced the first resurrection are in Christ. Those who came to believe in Him during their lifetimes and are thus Christians. But all ~ those in Christ and those not in Christ ~ are resurrected physically in the second resurrection. Those having experienced the first resurrection and thus being in Christ are only a subset ~ and thus not all ~ of those included in the second resurrection. So, did you do that on purpose? Or was it an honest mistake? No matter; either way, you are mistaken in what I was referring to.

The second resurrection of Revelation 20:12-15 is a general resurrection of all ~ those in Christ (separated to His right; "the wheat") and those not in Christ (those separated to His left; . . .

You are contradicting yourself.

Not at all.

You first claimed that all are one group and all (members of both sub-groups) are in Christ.

Nope. See above.

Now you are including those not in Christ in the second resurrection.

Well, I always have, throughout this thread and all others where I have addressed this subject.

How can someone be in Christ and not in Christ (as you claim) at the same time?

I claim no such thing. So again, are you putting words in my mouth on purpose? Or just by honest mistake? If the latter, I'm not sure how you could make such a mistake. But either way, your mistake in attributing it to me it is.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

All (members of both groups) are in Christ, and in this sense they are, together, one group.

So all resurrected in the first and second resurrection are in Christ.

No, that's not what I was referring to at all, myth-one.

The first group (those who came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years) are the dead in Christ (Christians who die before Christ returns). The second group (the rest of the dead who do not come to life until the thousand years are ended), are non-Christian; these ones take part in the second resurrection (the resurrection of the dead), at Rev 20:12-15.

Pam nailed it. That is absolutely what the Bible states.

Nope. All (members of both groups) are in Christ, and in this sense they are, together, one group.

Now you are taking that back -- correct?

Well, only half way, . . .

Ok, you're halfway taking it back?