#4 Bible on Hell - Revelation 14:9-13

[Wootah]

9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

The above seems to imply:
- hell is eternal torment.
- tormented and smoke of their torment rises forever and ever.
- No rest day or night.
- This implies that death is not non-existence, one group will rest and one group will not rest.

Does anyone disagree that this implies conscious eternal torment with no rest day or night?

[Jemima]

Located under the sun or not, the dead know not any thing.

You are correct that they are no longer present in this life -- because they are dead.

Death is such an emotive subject and visions of some kind of afterlife permeate most religious thinking, for Christians and non-Christians.

So what is death exactly? According to the scriptures, death is just the opposite of life. But for most religions, death involves some kind of continuance, rather than a cessation. So what does the Bible say about death?

What did God tell Adam when he disobeyed and had the sentence pronounced upon him?
Genesis 3:19...
"In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”
Any mention of an afterlife there?

What about the nation of Israel? What did God tell them?
Deuteronomy 30:19-20...
"I take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse; and you must choose life so that you may live, you and your descendants, 20 by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice, and by sticking to him, for he is your life and by him you will endure a long time in the land that Jehovah swore to give to your forefathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.”

Any mention of heaven or hell there?

Solomon lamented the fact that humans had no advantage over the animals in death....he wrote in Ecclesiastes 3:19-20...
"for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust."

So from the perspective of the Jews, dead was dead.

Did things change for Christians? Did the Christians worship a different God? No! They worshipped the same God as Jesus did. So what did Jesus teach us about death? When his friend Lazarus got sick, his sisters sent word to Jesus to come straight away. But he didn't. Rather, he waited for four days before he went to their house, knowing that his friend had died. What did he say?
John 11:11-15...
"After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died, 15 and I rejoice for your sake that I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

So where had Lazarus gone? Nowhere....Jesus said he was 'sleeping' and that he was going to 'awaken' him. So this reinforces Solomon's words in Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10....
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. . . .Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going."

"Sheol" is the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek, "hades". It is translated in the Jewish Tanakh as "the grave"...where we are all going. "Hades" is a place of rest, not a place of fiery torment.

In order to be tormented, someone has to be alive but, because "the dead know nothing", there can be no torment after death. The torment has to come before death. Like the Pharisees who hated Jesus because his truth showed them up for the hypocritical frauds that they were...that was their torment. It drove them to murder.

So there is actually no teaching in the Bible about life after death as experienced when our soul or spirit leaves our body to go somewhere else.
The word "soul" in the Bible refers to a living, breathing creature....it never refers to a disembodied spirit. So like Adam we weren't given a soul but we are a soul.
And the "spirit" that the Bible speaks of is the same as what Adam received when God first created him.....he "breathed into his nostrils the breath (spirit) of life and the man became a living soul."

It is the "spirit" (breath) that is returned to those who are resurrected, like Lazarus. He had no idea how he got into that tomb or why he was all wrapped up in linen cloth....he made no mention of being anywhere, and if he had been in a better place why would Jesus have brought him back to this life only to die a second time?

There is no immortal soul in scripture. We mortals all go to the same place...the common grave.....it is from there that we are resurrected.

[Eloi]

There are many reasons to understand that Gehenna is a symbolic place that represents eternal destruction. In fact, that word refers to a real place that existed outside the city of Jerusalem and that was the city's garbage dump.

According to some biblical passages and historical accounts in that real place located in the Valley of Hinnon (literal meaning of Gehenna) a continuous fire was kept probably fueled with sulfur, so that all the garbage was burned. It is known that killed criminals in Jerusalem were not given dignified burials and were thrown there. The position of the garbage dump allowed some corpses to remain on the slopes without the fire reaching them completely, and those who looked out could see how the worms were consuming them. That scene is the one Isaiah describes here:

Is. 66:24 “And they will go out and look on the carcasses of the men who rebelled against me;
For the worms on them will not die,
And their fire will not be extinguished,
And they will become something repulsive to all people.”

Jesus alluded to Gehenna as a place similar to the sight of God. In that place there would not be people in any way being tormented, but people who remain eternally as an example of destruction so that everyone would know the eternal future of wicked people, such as the scene of the body of a criminal thrown in a garbage can and being eaten by worms.

Mark 9:43 “If ever your hand makes you stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed than to go off with two hands into Ge·henʹna, into the fire that cannot be put out. 44 —— 45 And if your foot makes you stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life lame than to be thrown with two feet into Ge·henʹna. 46 —— 47 And if your eye makes you stumble, throw it away. It is better for you to enter one-eyed into the Kingdom of God than to be thrown with two eyes into Ge·henʹna, 48 where the maggot does not die and the fire is not put out.

Jesus speaks of bodies thrown into Gehenna, NOT "souls". Everyone around Jerusalem who listened to him could perfectly understand his illustration.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #2]

The lake of fire burns forever because the devil is restrained there forever. The devil is immortal, thus his prison must be also. No big deal.

Oh?

The lake of fire is a metaphor for its literal reality, which is specified as The Second Death.

God only has immortality.

The devil will not be restrained in a prison. That is not what The Second Death is or does.

[Checkpoint]

All these discussions inevitably, invariably come down to this:

Death, in the Bible, is a state of existence. To be dead in sin, as unbelievers are in this life, is a state of existence. And in eternity, when the age to come begins, unbelievers will go away from where true life (existence in the presence of the One Who is Life) can be experienced and enjoyed eternally to a place where where this true life cannot be enjoyed or experienced ~ and in that sense is most assuredly true death ~ but is certainly an eternal existence and experience.

Grace and peace to all.

Not so, Pinseeker.

What you wrote is what you want it to come down to, which is "traditional doctrine".

What it comes down to, is that this doctrine, "Death, in the Bible, is a state of existence", is being challenged by some posters who have a different doctrine.

That is what it has come down to. Our opinion about, our reading of, our interpretation of, what the Bible says and means.

Grace and peace to all who post, and to all who read what we write.

[PinSeeker]

All these discussions inevitably, invariably come down to this:

Death, in the Bible, is a state of existence. To be dead in sin, as unbelievers are in this life, is a state of existence. And in eternity, when the age to come begins, unbelievers will go away from where true life (existence in the presence of the One Who is Life) can be experienced and enjoyed eternally to a place where where this true life cannot be enjoyed or experienced ~ and in that sense is most assuredly true death ~ but is certainly an eternal existence and experience.

Grace and peace to all.

Not so, Pinseeker.

Yes it is, Checkpoint.

What you wrote is what you want it to come down to, which is "traditional doctrine".

No, what I want it to come down to ~ and it does ~ is what God says in His inerrant, infallible Word. Which, you know, everybody here would agree with, for sure.

What it comes down to, is that this doctrine, "Death, in the Bible, is a state of existence", is being challenged by some posters who have a different doctrine.

Two things here. I'm sure we would all agree that regarding the Bible, there's true doctrine, and then all others are false. And second, sure "this doctrine," as you say, is "challenged" (although it's more than that, really). But that doesn't really have anything to do with what what the central immediate issue with regard to this doctrine ~ and I mean lack of understanding of and/or aversion to it ~ really is, which is, well, what I said, that people misunderstand (or reconstitute, for varying reasonss) what death really is in God's economy.

That is what it has come down to. Our opinion about, our reading of, our interpretation of, what the Bible says and means.

Well, see, now here, you're kind of contradicting yourself. I mean you basically just said, "No, that's not it, but yes, that's it."

Grace and peace to you.

[PinSeeker]

Located under the sun or not, the dead know not any thing.

You understand, surely, that "under the sun" is a euphemism for our experience of this life, right? I mean, surely you do. Well, if you didn't before, you do now.

You are correct that they are no longer present in this life -- because they are dead.

Right, so when they pass from this life, they no longer know anything of ~ no longer experience in any way ~ this life "under the sun." This is the context of Ecclesiastes 9.

And carrying it forward a bit, just because it's left unsaid, it should not be then understood that they have no experience whatsoever, as would be the case if they were annihilated. The clear implication is that they are experiencing something even though they are no longer "under the sun." Like the thief crucified on Jesus's left, whom Jesus said nothing to, they are experiencing something... something other than being in paradise with Him, as the thief crucified on Jesus's right did. I mean, you're making the point for me without even realizing it. Oh well, it is what it is.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

You are correct that they are no longer present in this life -- because they are dead.

Right, so when they pass from this life, they no longer know anything of ~ no longer experience in any way ~ this life "under the sun." This is the context of Ecclesiastes 9.

And carrying it forward a bit, just because it's left unsaid, it should not be then understood that they have no experience whatsoever, as would be the case if they were annihilated. The clear implication is that they are experiencing something even though they are no longer "under the sun."

I dunno.

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

Five verses down, God explains death in more detail:

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. (Ecclesiastes 9:10)

Whatever you claim they are experiencing, it cannot involve any work, device, knowledge, nor wisdom!

[PinSeeker]

You are correct that they are no longer present in this life -- because they are dead.

Right, so when they pass from this life, they no longer know anything of ~ no longer experience in any way ~ this life "under the sun." This is the context of Ecclesiastes 9.

And carrying it forward a bit, just because it's left unsaid, it should not be then understood that they have no experience whatsoever, as would be the case if they were annihilated. The clear implication is that they are experiencing something even though they are no longer "under the sun."

I dunno.

That's... kind of the problem.

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

Five verses down, God explains death in more detail:

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. (Ecclesiastes 9:10)

Whatever you claim they are experiencing, it cannot involve any work, device, knowledge, nor wisdom!

Yes, once they die ~ pass from this life, life under the sun ~ then they have no more share in it, and they know it... EXPERIENCE IT... no more. It is not about just mere cognitive knowledge, like knowing two plus two is four, grass is (at least in the spring and summer) green, the sky is blue (unless it's overcast), or the top-ranked college football team right now is Alabama. And more relevantly to what the discussion here is, it is not to be applied to the age to come, as you continue to do. To do so is to take the entire book of Ecclesiastes out of its own context.

But hey, goest as thou wantest.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. (Ecclesiastes 9:10)

Whatever you claim they are experiencing, it cannot involve any work, device, knowledge, nor wisdom!

Yes, once they die ~ pass from this life, life under the sun ~ then they have no more share in it, and they know it...

==================================================

Here's another conflict between one of your past claims and the scriptures which you have never addressed:

Hearing is not absolutely necessary.

But in the scriptures, it is written:

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? (Romans 10:13-14)

Why do you object to these billions being preached the gospel message after their resurrection, as the scriptures state?

For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit. (I Peter 4:5 NIV)

Do you not believe that would be just and true?

[Checkpoint]

All these discussions inevitably, invariably come down to this:

Death, in the Bible, is a state of existence. To be dead in sin, as unbelievers are in this life, is a state of existence. And in eternity, when the age to come begins, unbelievers will go away from where true life (existence in the presence of the One Who is Life) can be experienced and enjoyed eternally to a place where where this true life cannot be enjoyed or experienced ~ and in that sense is most assuredly true death ~ but is certainly an eternal existence and experience.

Grace and peace to all.

Not so, Pinseeker.

Yes it is, Checkpoint.

What you wrote is what you want it to come down to, which is "traditional doctrine".

No, what I want it to come down to ~ and it does ~ is what God says in His inerrant, infallible Word. Which, you know, everybody here would agree with, for sure.

What it comes down to, is that this doctrine, "Death, in the Bible, is a state of existence", is being challenged by some posters who have a different doctrine.

Two things here. I'm sure we would all agree that regarding the Bible, there's true doctrine, and then all others are false. And second, sure "this doctrine," as you say, is "challenged" (although it's more than that, really). But that doesn't really have anything to do with what what the central immediate issue with regard to this doctrine ~ and I mean lack of understanding of and/or aversion to it ~ really is, which is, well, what I said, that people misunderstand (or reconstitute, for varying reasonss) what death really is in God's economy.

That is what it has come down to. Our opinion about, our reading of, our interpretation of, what the Bible says and means.

Well, see, now here, you're kind of contradicting yourself. I mean you basically just said, "No, that's not it, but yes, that's it."

Grace and peace to you.

I don't contradict myself, but I do contradict much of what you say about "what death is in God's economy".

As do a number of other posters.

Grace and peace to you, and to all.