#4 Bible on Hell - Revelation 14:9-13

[Wootah]

9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

The above seems to imply:
- hell is eternal torment.
- tormented and smoke of their torment rises forever and ever.
- No rest day or night.
- This implies that death is not non-existence, one group will rest and one group will not rest.

Does anyone disagree that this implies conscious eternal torment with no rest day or night?

[myth-one.com]

9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

The above seems to imply:
- hell is eternal torment.
- tormented and smoke of their torment rises forever and ever.
- No rest day or night.
- This implies that death is not non-existence, one group will rest and one group will not rest.

Does anyone disagree that this implies conscious eternal torment with no rest day or night?

It does not imply conscious eternal torment with no rest day or night. Why would you or anyone argue that God is sadistic? I'll argue the case that God is Love:

10 They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

Those whose names are not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire after their judgment and instantly suffer their second and everlasting death. The angels and the Lord will be present as they participate in the judgment. No big deal.

11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever.

Their torment was the lake of fire, and it's smoke will rise for ever and ever. The lake of fire burns forever because the devil is restrained there forever. The devil is immortal, thus his prison must be also. No big deal.

There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.

When one's "first death" occurs, one is said to sleep, slumber, or rest upon being buried -- Rest In Peace. The first death is described in this manner because everyone who ever died will be resurrected from their first death. Since we will all live again, we are not really dead -- as true death is permanent. Thus we are resting awaiting resurrection.

But those suffering their "second death" will experience no rest, because there is absolutely no resurrection from the second death! It is an everlasting punishment -- they will never live again. They are not resting and they will never rest again -- because they are truly dead!!

[PinSeeker]

All these discussions inevitably, invariably come down to this:

Death, in the Bible, is a state of existence. To be dead in sin, as unbelievers are in this life, is a state of existence. And in eternity, when the age to come begins, unbelievers will go away from where true life (existence in the presence of the One Who is Life) can be experienced and enjoyed eternally to a place where where this true life cannot be enjoyed or experienced ~ and in that sense is most assuredly true death ~ but is certainly an eternal existence and experience.

Grace and peace to all.

[1213]

....
- hell is eternal torment.
- tormented and smoke of their torment rises forever and ever.
- No rest day or night.
- This implies that death is not non-existence, one group will rest and one group will not rest.

Does anyone disagree that this implies conscious eternal torment with no rest day or night?

I don't think it means conscious eternal suffering, because it would mean all live eternally, which is in my opinion in contradiction with these:

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

In Bible, eternal life is promised only for righteous, unrighteous are destroyed. I think, when person is death and destroyed, he doesn't have anything, not even rest.

[myth-one.com]

All these discussions inevitably, invariably come down to this:

Death, in the Bible, is a state of existence.

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing... (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

If in your dead state of existence you know nothing, you might as well be annihilated.

[PinSeeker]

All these discussions inevitably, invariably come down to this:
Death, in the Bible, is a state of existence.

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing... (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

If in your dead state of existence you know nothing, you might as well be annihilated.

And I have said, a countless number of times now, and you have no rebuttal to other than "I disagree," is that you take Ecclesiastes 9:5 completely out of it's context and therefore come to an invalid conclusion ~ and really a conclusion completely opposite of the valid conclusion ~ about what Biblical death really is. And that's the point.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

All these discussions inevitably, invariably come down to this:
Death, in the Bible, is a state of existence.

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing... (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

If in your dead state of existence you know nothing, you might as well be annihilated.

And I have said, a countless number of times now, and you have no rebuttal to other than "I disagree," is that you take Ecclesiastes 9:5 completely out of it's context and therefore come to an invalid conclusion ~ and really a conclusion completely opposite of the valid conclusion ~ about what Biblical death really is. And that's the point.

Grace and peace to you.

The dead know not any thing.

Can you state something that the dead know?

[Wootah]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #2]

When one's "first death" occurs, one is said to sleep, slumber, or rest upon being buried -- Rest In Peace. The first death is described in this manner because everyone who ever died will be resurrected from their first death. Since we will all live again, we are not really dead -- as true death is permanent. Thus we are resting awaiting resurrection.

But those suffering their "second death" will experience no rest, because there is absolutely no resurrection from the second death! It is an everlasting punishment -- they will never live again. They are not resting and they will never rest again -- because they are truly dead!!

What is the qualitative difference for you between the first rest and the second not rest? How would the individual know which rest they are in? How would an 'outside observer' know?

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #2]

When one's "first death" occurs, one is said to sleep, slumber, or rest upon being buried -- Rest In Peace. The first death is described in this manner because everyone who ever died will be resurrected from their first death. Since we will all live again, we are not really dead -- as true death is permanent. Thus we are resting awaiting resurrection.

But those suffering their "second death" will experience no rest, because there is absolutely no resurrection from the second death! It is an everlasting punishment -- they will never live again. They are not resting and they will never rest again -- because they are truly dead!!

What is the qualitative difference for you between the first rest and the second not rest? How would the individual know which rest they are in? How would an 'outside observer' know?

There is only one rest.

And not everyone will experience that rest.

Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. (I Corinthians 15:51)

Believers who are alive at the Second Coming will be born again of the Spirit immediately without any "rest" or death.

[Wootah]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #9]
Unsaved:

There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image

Saved:

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

How are the unsaved not resting from their labour under your view?