#4 Bible on Hell - Revelation 14:9-13

[Wootah]

9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

The above seems to imply:
- hell is eternal torment.
- tormented and smoke of their torment rises forever and ever.
- No rest day or night.
- This implies that death is not non-existence, one group will rest and one group will not rest.

Does anyone disagree that this implies conscious eternal torment with no rest day or night?

[Checkpoint]

9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

The above seems to imply:
- hell is eternal torment.
- tormented and smoke of their torment rises forever and ever.
- No rest day or night.
- This implies that death is not non-existence, one group will rest and one group will not rest.

Does anyone disagree that this implies conscious eternal torment with no rest day or night?

I welcome the inclusion of this passage in your group of threads.

>So far it has largely been ignored by most posters.

I intend to post on it, and comment on what you wrote about what it seems to you to imply.

But not to day; not in this post.

Instead, I will now quote several passages or verses that I consider to be both relevant and helpful to any who wish to better understand this thread's chosen passage from Revelation 14.

Isaiah 34:

8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause.

9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!

10 It will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever.

Revelation 18:

7 Give her as much torment and grief
as the glory and luxury she gave herself.
In her heart she boasts,
‘I sit enthroned as queen
I am not a widow;
I will never mourn.’

8 Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her:
death, mourning and famine.
She will be consumed by fire,
for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.

9 When the kings of the earth who committed adultery with her and shared her luxury see the smoke of her burning, they will weep and mourn over her.

10 In fear and dread at her torment, they will stand far off and cry.

15 The merchants who sold these things and gained their wealth from her will stand far off, terrified at her torment. They will weep and mourn 16 and cry out.

21 Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said:

“With such violence
the great city of Babylon will be thrown down,
never to be found again.

24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people,
of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.

Revelation 19:

1 After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting:

“Hallelujah!
Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,
2 for true and just are His judgments.
He has condemned the great prostitute
who corrupted the earth by her adulteries.
He has avenged on her the blood of his servants.”

3 And again they shouted:

“Hallelujah!
The smoke from her goes up for ever and ever.”

[PinSeeker]

I don't contradict myself, but I do contradict much of what you say about "what death is in God's economy". As do a number of other posters.

Well, you disagree. Yes, I'm well aware of that. But for a number of other posters, not so much.

Grace and peace to you.

[Checkpoint]

9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

The above seems to imply:
- hell is eternal torment.
- tormented and smoke of their torment rises forever and ever.
- No rest day or night.
- This implies that death is not non-existence, one group will rest and one group will not rest.

Does anyone disagree that this implies conscious eternal torment with no rest day or night?

I welcome the inclusion of this passage in your group of threads.

>So far it has largely been ignored by most posters.

I intend to post on it, and comment on what you wrote about what it seems to you to imply.

But not to day; not in this post.

Instead, I will now quote several passages or verses that I consider to be both relevant and helpful to any who wish to better understand this thread's chosen passage from Revelation 14.

Isaiah 34:

8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause.

9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!

10 It will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever.

Revelation 18:

7 Give her as much torment and grief
as the glory and luxury she gave herself.
In her heart she boasts,
‘I sit enthroned as queen
I am not a widow;
I will never mourn.’

8 Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her:
death, mourning and famine.
She will be consumed by fire,
for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.

9 When the kings of the earth who committed adultery with her and shared her luxury see the smoke of her burning, they will weep and mourn over her.

10 In fear and dread at her torment, they will stand far off and cry.

15 The merchants who sold these things and gained their wealth from her will stand far off, terrified at her torment. They will weep and mourn 16 and cry out[/u].

21 Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said:

“With such violence
the great city of Babylon will be thrown down,
never to be found again.

24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people,
of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.

Revelation 19:

1 After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting:

“Hallelujah!
Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,
2 for true and just are His judgments.
He has condemned the great prostitute
who corrupted the earth by her adulteries.
He has avenged on her the blood of his servants.”

3 And again they shouted:

“Hallelujah!
The smoke from her goes up for ever and ever.”

Do you see that the Isaiah 34 passage is the precursor to the Revelation 14 passage of this thread?

Do you see how the Revelation 18 and 19 verses show what is meant by the use of the word torment" and the phrase "smoke goes up for ever and ever"?

Do you think these verses imply conscious eternal torment?

My next post will be about the word "torment"; its usage and meaning.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #11]

What will happen to them after the second death that is different to what happens after the first death?

They are resurrected after their first death.

They are never resurrected after their second death. They will never live again.

But you wrote: When one's "first death" occurs, one is said to sleep, slumber, or rest upon being buried -- Rest In Peace. The first death is described in this manner because everyone who ever died will be resurrected from their first death. Since we will all live again, we are not really dead -- as true death is permanent. Thus we are resting awaiting resurrection.

So after the second death, they are back to the first rest? What changed? When do they experience unrest?

Every human who ever died (believers and nonbelievers) are now "resting" in their graves.

Believers will be resurrected or awakened to everlasting life.

Non-believers will be resurrected or awakened as physical human beings once again.

Non-believers will face judgment. After judgment, those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire and suffer their second and everlasting death.

They are not asleep or resting. They are dead for all eternity.

By "unrest" do you mean when are the non-believers awakened?

If that is your meaning, then they will never be awakened as they are not asleep!

Everyone will be resurrected or awakened from their "first death." So the first death is not really a death, but a sleep.

But no one will be resurrected or awakened from their "second death" as it is truly a death -- not a rest!

The wages of sin is death, and nonbelievers have no one to save them from those wages -- so they die.

The wages of sin is death, but believers accept the gift of God (everlasting life) through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This is accomplished by human believers being born again of the Spirit as immortal spiritual bodied beings.

Following that, we are no longer humans, but angels.

[PinSeeker]

What will happen to them after the second death that is different to what happens after the first death?

They are resurrected after their first death.

Right, physically, just as Jesus was, along with believers, but what unbelievers are resurrected to will be much different than (opposite from) what others are resurrected to.

They are never resurrected after their second death. They will never live again.

Well, right, because they will have already been resurrected (to judgment) when they enter into their eternal (of eternity, everlasting, never-ending) punishment.

But you wrote: When one's "first death" occurs, one is said to sleep, slumber, or rest upon being buried -- Rest In Peace. The first death is described in this manner because everyone who ever died will be resurrected from their first death. Since we will all live again, we are not really dead -- as true death is permanent. Thus we are resting awaiting resurrection. So after the second death, they are back to the first rest? What changed? When do they experience unrest?

Every human who ever died (believers and nonbelievers) are now "resting" in their graves.

Right, but you're not really answering Wootah's question, here, myth-one. Wootah specifically said "after the second death." I'll be glad to answer it... ... I would not say "after the second death," but rather "in the second death" (and I think Wootah would, too), this is when they experience unrest... as a result of the Judgment, they never experience the eternal Sabbath (rest), as believers do.

Believers will be resurrected or awakened to everlasting life.

Right; this is the eternal Sabbath ~ the promised rest. This is Hebrews 4.

Non-believers will be resurrected or awakened as physical human beings once again.

Right, but so will believers. There are not two separate and distinct resurrections, but one resurrection with opposite results for one group of folks (believers) and another group of folks (non-believers) based on the Judgment. Jesus is very clear about this in John 5:28-29 -- "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." Following the Judgment, non-believers will not enter into God's promised rest, but rather go (be sent) away into eternal punishment (Matthew 25:46).

Non-believers will face judgment. After judgment, those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire and suffer their second and everlasting death.

Right, along with Satan, where they will be in torment day and night forever.

Following that, we are no longer humans, but angels.

Angels are angels. Humans are humans. In eternity, this will be true, just as it is now. Believers will finally be glorified, but yet humans. Just for the record, I have never heard anyone ~ anyone ~ make the claim/assertion that humans will become angels. God, in His Word, never says or implies this.

Grace and peace to all.

[Eloi]

According to those who believe in the immortal soul of dead people, the souls of the good dead who have died are already enjoying pleasures with God and angels ... but then they will be given a body (who knows what for?). On the other hand, the souls of the wicked dead are already suffering burning in a "hell" for having been evil when they had a body, BUT those who believe that, say that later they will be given another body to be judged and punished again. Maybe they hadn't been burned enough where they were, to be taken out of there and thrown in a worse place? How many times does God judge and punish for the same things? ... not even human judges judge the same cause twice. Obviously, those who believe these things are very confused by misinterpreting the Scriptures. Where are the supposed souls of Abel or Abraham, for example, right now, and what will happen to them in the future?

[PinSeeker]

...those who believe that, say that later they will be given another body to be judged and punished again.

I think only myth-one believes in two separate bodies... And two separate resurrections, and two separate judgments (I think). And two separate... several things... Yeah, no.

Obviously, those who believe these things are very confused by misinterpreting the Scriptures.

Agreed.

Where are the supposed souls of Abel or Abraham, for example, right now, and what will happen to them in the future?

With Jesus, now, and with allllllllllllll of us believers on Jesus's right after the resurrection and at the Judgment, and with Jesus and us in the new heaven and new earth thereafter and forevermore.

Grace and peace to all.

[Eloi]

When Paul talks about the faith of Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, etc ... what does he say about them?

Heb. 11:13 In faith all of these died, although they did not receive the fulfillment of the promises; but they saw them from a distance and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land. (...) 39 And yet all of these, although they received a favorable witness because of their faith, did not obtain the fulfillment of the promise, 40 because God had foreseen something better for us, so that they might not be made perfect apart from us.

When are they going to receive the fulfillment of the promises? What the angel said to Daniel, who was already an old man, gives us a clue:

Dan. 12:13 “But as for you, go on to the end. You will rest, but you will stand up for your lot at the end of the days.”

Only when the faithful dead are raised, and it is certain that they will live again, will they get their reward:

Mark 12:26 But concerning the dead being raised up, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account about the thornbush, that God said to him: ‘I am the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob’? 27 He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living. You are very much mistaken.”

Those who say that the souls of faithful servants of Jehovah who have died are enjoying something without being resurrected do not know what the Scriptures really teach. They have to take Bible classes so they can learn the truth.

[PinSeeker]

Like all of us Christians who are still alive here on earth, even for those Christians who have physically died, their lives are hidden with Christ in God, and when Christ Who is our life appears, then we all also will appear with Him in glory (Colossians 1:3-4).

All those saints who have gone on before, even us up to today, and through to all those saints who will go on prior to Christ's return, like the thief crucified on Jesus's right will be with Him that very day in paradise (Luke 23:43).

They and we will be reunited with our (reconstituted) physical bodies at the resurrection. Unbelievers will be, too, but their resurrection will be to... a different thing. And place.

Grace and peace.

[myth-one.com]

Like all of us Christians who are still alive here on earth, even for those Christians who have physically died, their lives are hidden with Christ in God, and when Christ Who is our life appears, then we all also will appear with Him in glory (Colossians 1:3-4).

All those saints who have gone on before, even us up to today, and through to all those saints who will go on prior to Christ's return, like the thief crucified on Jesus's right will be with Him that very day in paradise (Luke 23:43).

They and we will be reunited with our (reconstituted) physical bodies at the resurrection. Unbelievers will be, too, but their resurrection will be to... a different thing. And place.

Grace and peace.

That's sad, because physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God:

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;... (I Corinthians 15:49-50)

Where are you guys going to go?