#4 Bible on Hell - Revelation 14:9-13

[Wootah]

9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

The above seems to imply:
- hell is eternal torment.
- tormented and smoke of their torment rises forever and ever.
- No rest day or night.
- This implies that death is not non-existence, one group will rest and one group will not rest.

Does anyone disagree that this implies conscious eternal torment with no rest day or night?

[myth-one.com]

I think only myth-one believes in two separate bodies...

I imagine there are others who have read the scriptures and understand that fact also.

But it isn't important what Myth-one believes anyway. What counts is what the scriptures state:

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)

One body + one body = two bodies

So the scriptures state there are two type of bodies. The scriptures also state that the two type of bodies do not mix. The natural body comes first and the spiritual body comes last -- if at all. Here is that scripture:

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (I Corinthians 15:46)

So the scriptures state that there are two separate types of bodies.
=====================================================

And two separate resurrections, . . .

Again, it isn't important what Myth-one believes. What counts is what the scriptures state:

This is the first resurrection. (Revelation 20:5)

Everyone not resurrected in this first resurrection will be resurrected in a second resurrection a thousand years later:

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. (Revelation 20:5)

One resurrection + one resurrection = two resurrections

So the scriptures state that there are two general resurrections for mankind.
=====================================================

. . . and two separate judgments (I think). And two separate... several things... Yeah, no.

You think wrongly. Myth-one.com, having actually read the scriptures, knows that there is only one final great white throne judgment.

Why would there need to be more than one?

[PinSeeker]

I think only myth-one believes in two separate bodies...

I imagine there are others who have read the scriptures and understand that fact also.

Probably so, but that doesn't make it right... ... much less a fact.

It isn't important what Myth-one believes. What counts is what the scriptures state

Well, actually, it is important what any of us believes. And if Myth-one believes something contrary to what the Scriptures state and then presents it to others factual, then that's a problem. The same would be true if that were the case with anyone, including PinSeeker.

Everyone not resurrected in this first resurrection will be resurrected in a second resurrection a thousand years later: "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." (Revelation 20:5). One resurrection + one resurrection = two resurrections. So the scriptures state that there are two general resurrections for mankind.

This is not correct, Myth-one. The rest of the dead should be seen as a group. The total group does not come to life until the thousand years are finished, but individual members of this group come to life over the course of this "thousand years," and that is happening right now ~ has been happening since Pentecost and will continue to happen until Jesus returns at the end of the age, at the end of the "thousand years."

Only the second resurrection is general, meaning a physical resurrection of both believers and unbelievers from their graves to face judgment. And in this one general resurrection, believers are resurrected to eternal life, and unbelievers are resurrected to eternal judgment.

This is what the Scriptures state.

. . . and two separate judgments (I think). And two separate... several things... Yeah, no.

You think wrongly. Myth-one.com, having actually read the scriptures, knows that there is only one final great white throne judgment.

Okay, great! I take back what I thought about you thinking there were two separate judgments. I know you said "no takes backs" ~ LOL; "takes backs" ~ but all I'm taking back is that one thing about two judgments that I thought you believed. But that's just... you know... one... thing.

Grace and peace to you.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #42]

The rest of the dead should be seen as a group. The total group does not come to life until the thousand years are finished,

I'm sorry, and I mean no offense, but that is not how the phrase 'the rest of' works. The "rest of" a group cannot mean the total group. It cannot. Those are opposing things. By necessity, 'the rest of' something excludes the previous subject mentioned.

For example (something simple):

Some berries were overripe. The rest of the berries were good.

You would understand, I am sure, that the "rest of" the berries refers ONLY to the berries that were not part of the first group. The 'rest of' the berries CANNOT refer to the overripe berries.

It works exactly the same in Revelation. The 'rest of the dead' CANNOT be referring to anyone in the first group (those who came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years). "They" (from 'they came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years) are necessarily excluded from the group being referred to as 'the rest of' the dead.



Peace again to you.

[myth-one.com]

I think only myth-one believes in two separate bodies...

What counts is what the scriptures state:

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

One body + one body = two bodies

So the scriptures state there are two type of bodies.

The scriptures also state that the two type of bodies do not mix. The natural body comes first and the spiritual body comes last -- if at all.
Here is that scripture:

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

So the scriptures state that there are two separate types of bodies.

**** End of Proof ****

Do you understand that now?

[PinSeeker]

I think only myth-one believes in two separate bodies...

What counts is what the scriptures states

Agreed. Of course.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

One body + one body = two bodies

So the scriptures state there are two type of bodies.

The scriptures also state that the two type of bodies do not mix. The natural body comes first and the spiritual body comes last -- if at all.
Here is that scripture:

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

So the scriptures state that there are two separate types of bodies.

**** End of Proof ****

Do you understand that now?

I understand both Scripture ~ what Paul is saying here in 1 Corinthians 15 in particular ~ and what you think you've proven, but those two things are quite different.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

I understand both Scripture . . .

Here's one:

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

How many bodies are defined in that verse?

[PinSeeker]

The rest of the dead should be seen as a group. The total group does not come to life until the thousand years are finished,

I'm sorry, and I mean no offense, but that is not how the phrase 'the rest of' works.

Yes, I know that's what you think and how you think it works.

The "rest of" a group cannot mean the total group. It cannot.

That's totally not what I said. You totally misread my comment. My goodness, I said, Tammy, that the rest of the dead should be seen as a group, and then in the next sentence, my very point is that the total group is larger than that first group ~ the rest of the dead is a group on its own, but part of ~ a subset of, if you will ~ the total group. Now, I will say that even my statement can possibly be read and understood in two different ways. Not that it's ambiguous, because it's not, really. But you picked the wrong one. And the same is true of John and the understanding of him by some in this forum... which is what I've said many time now. I know, I know; just because I say something doesn't make it true, right? Well, okay.

Hey, I get what "threw you for a loop," so to speak... that I said "until the thousand years are finished," which is what John says about the rest of the dead, but I wasn't really quoting him on that and didn't mean what I said to be taken in exactly the same light as what he said in Revelation 20:5.

The 'rest of the dead' CANNOT be referring to anyone in the first group (those who came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years). "They" (from 'they came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years) are necessarily excluded from the group being referred to as 'the rest of' the dead.

I totally agree. But beyond that, the two groups ~ yes, two groups of folks, the one referred to in Revelation 20:4 and the one referred to in Revelation 20:5 ~ together make up one group... the righteous in Christ. The real disagreement between us, I think, is what John says about the first group ~ "(t)hey came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years" ~ as opposed to what he says about the second group ~ "(they) did not come to life until the thousand years were ended."

Grace and peace to you.

[PinSeeker]

I understand both Scripture . . .

Here's one:

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

How many bodies are defined in that verse?

Two states/natures ~ natural and spiritual ~ of the one body. Paul elaborates again and again and again in all his epistles.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

Only the second resurrection is general, meaning a physical resurrection of both believers and unbelievers from their graves to face judgment.

The scriptures state that Christians will be resurrected at the Second Coming:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

And the scriptures state that all nonbelievers will be resurrected a 1,000 years later:

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

. . . the two groups ~ yes, two groups of folks, the one referred to in Revelation 20:4 and the one referred to in Revelation 20:5 ~ together make up one group... the righteous in Christ.

The two groups in Revelation 4 & 5 make up all of mankind. Christianity divides mankind into these two groups -- which are believers and nonbelievers.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

"This is the first resurrection" refers to those resurrected in verse 4!

Perhaps you can understand it better if you look at what Paul said would happen:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The resurrection which we await now is the first resurrection at the Second Coming of all deceased Christians (they that are Christ's). This is the resurrection described in Revelation 20:4.

In verse 4, "them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands" are resurrected and spend the 1,000 year millennium with Christ:

. . .and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

After the 1,000 years, the rest of the dead are resurrected:

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

The rest of the dead are all nonbelievers because all Christians were resurrected in verse 4!

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #49]

Thank you for your thoughts, myth-one. Grace and peace to you.