Gehenna - just a rubbish tip outside Jerusalem?

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Wootah
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Gehenna - just a rubbish tip outside Jerusalem?

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Post by Wootah »

Many here seem to believe Gehenna is just a rubbish tip outside Jerusalem and not a reference to hell.

Pulling an argument from this video (around the 16-minute mark):

Mark 9 vs 43-49 says: And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Why does Jesus talk about entering into life and the rubbish tip outside Jerusalem in the same sentence? Do you really believe people thought hey let's follow Jesus so we don't go into the rubbish tip outside Jerusalem or do you think they knew Jesus meant hell?

Also since that rubbish tip's fire is quenched now and has been for a long time then doesn't that mean Jesus is a liar when he says that the fire there never shall be quenched?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

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Re: Gehenna - just a rubbish tip outside Jerusalem?

Post #111

Post by Checkpoint »

onewithhim wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:24 pm [Replying to Checkpoint in post #107]
I'm having somewhat of a problem following the reasoning on this thread.

1) "Hell" is not the Second Death but is mankind's common grave. Everyone who dies goes to the Bible "hell." Jesus was in "hell" for 3 days. He didn't go to a place of fire where people were burning. He was in his grave. So when you talk about "hell" you should be keeping that in mind, but everyone thinks that "hell" is the same as the Lake of Fire or Gehenna.
Yes, I see that you do have a reasoning problem.

This problem is determining what is the Bible "hell". That is, what is there in the Bible that clearly matches or portrays what we mean when we use the word "hell" as being God's final Judgment of those then rejected and shut out?

Believers never go to the Bible "hell", but they do go to "mankind's common grave" when they die.

It is completely different from the LOF and Gehenna. You'll notice that "hell" is thrown into the Lake of Fire in Revelation. Figure that one out. Truly, if "hell" is the common grave of mankind, then symbolically throwing it into the LOF (which symbolizes total destruction) would mean that the grave would no longer exist, because no one would ever die again (after the Millennial Reign and the obliteration of Satan and those who choose to follow him).
That is what makes the LOF and Gehenna the fitting symbols of the Bible hell.

This will take place on "the last day" at the Judgment seat of Christ when he returns.
Hebrews 9:
27Just as man is appointed to die once, and after that to face judgment,
28 so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await him.

Acts 17:
30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now He commands all people everywhere to repent,
31 because He has fixed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom He has appointed; and of this He has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

Hebrews 12:

25 See to it that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if the people did not escape when they refused Him who warned them on earth, how much less will we escape if we reject Him who warns us from heaven?
26 At that time His voice shook the earth, but now He has promised, “Once more I will shake not only the earth, but heaven as well.”
27 The words “Once more” signify the removal of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that the unshakable may remain.

28 Therefore, since we are receiving an unshakable kingdom, let us be filled with gratitude, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe.
29 “For our God is a consuming fire.

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Re: Gehenna - just a rubbish tip outside Jerusalem?

Post #112

Post by tam »

Peace to you!
[Replying to Checkpoint in post #111]

That is, what is there in the Bible that clearly matches or portrays what we mean when we use the word "hell" as being God's final Judgment of those then rejected and shut out?
We shouldn't use the word 'hell' as being God's final Judgment of those then rejected and shut out.

Hell - translated from Hades/Sheol - is the world of the dead, the place the dead go and sleep (conscious of nothing) until the second resurrection.

God's Judgment is... God's Judgment. If we insert a word that has a completely different meaning, then we will inevitably cause confusion. Same as the scribes have caused confusion by translating Sheol/Hades... and Gehenna... and Tartarus... all into the one word 'hell', implying (incorrectly) that these are all the same. When actually these are three different things.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Gehenna - just a rubbish tip outside Jerusalem?

Post #113

Post by Checkpoint »

tam wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:23 am Peace to you!
[Replying to Checkpoint in post #111]

That is, what is there in the Bible that clearly matches or portrays what we mean when we use the word "hell" as being God's final Judgment of those then rejected and shut out?
We shouldn't use the word 'hell' as being God's final Judgment of those then rejected and shut out.

Hell - translated from Hades/Sheol - is the world of the dead, the place the dead go and sleep (conscious of nothing) until the second resurrection.

God's Judgment is... God's Judgment. If we insert a word that has a completely different meaning, then we will inevitably cause confusion. Same as the scribes have caused confusion by translating Sheol/Hades... and Gehenna... and Tartarus... all into the one word 'hell', implying (incorrectly) that these are all the same. When actually these are three different things.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
The KJV translators and those following brought error and created confusion by using one English word for three different things, rather than simply transliterating the three words.

Modern scribes have corrected the more obvious errors, but some fudging remains.

Yes, God's Judgment is God's Judgment, not hell. That Judgment will be eternal judgment that includes both negative and positive verdicts regarding the way of life chosen by every human being who has ever lived.

Every negative verdict will result in negative consequences. Collectively, that is what the Bible hell will be.
Hebrews 12:
25 See to it that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if the people did not escape when they refused Him who warned them on earth, how much less will we escape if we reject Him who warns us from heaven?
26 At that time His voice shook the earth, but now He has promised, “Once more I will shake not only the earth, but heaven as well.”

27 The words “Once more” signify the removal of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that the unshakable may remain.

28 Therefore, since we are receiving an unshakable kingdom, let us be filled with gratitude, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe.
29 “For our God is a consuming fire.”
The Lord bless and keep you.

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Re: Gehenna - just a rubbish tip outside Jerusalem?

Post #114

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:48 pm Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:32 pm [Replying to Checkpoint in post #107]

2) You say that a person cannot pay for his sins. Not true. A person pays for his sins by dying. Death is the wages sin pays. ("The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23)


I'm not sure that (the bold) is quite accurate.

If the wages of sin is death, then the person is being paid for their sin with death. Death is the consequence of sin. We sin... we die. We don't get a resurrection and a clean slate just because we died. Death does not blot out sins; death is a consequence of sins.

Otherwise, there would be no judgment at the second resurrection, because everyone who ever died would have a clean slate. But we know that men will give an accounting for their careless words and deeds. See Matt 12:36, 37; Romans 14:12; Hebrews 9:27 (also 28); Rev 20:13. Even the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man shows that people receive based upon the things said and done in THIS life. Luke 16:25

Christ is the One who covers us with His blood, so that our sins are blotted out, forgiven, so that we receive eternal life, so that there is no judgment for us, only forgiveness.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
I don't disagree with that. In fact, I think I have said things that line up with what you say here. (With an exception perhaps of your take on the Rich Man and Lazarus. I don't believe that it is teaching that wicked men go to a literal fiery "hell.")

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Re: Gehenna - just a rubbish tip outside Jerusalem?

Post #115

Post by tam »

[Replying to onewithhim in post #114]

Oh, I agree that no one goes to a literal 'fiery' hell. I only used Lazarus and the Rich man as an example that our actions in this life do indeed count; we do not get an automatic clean slate and do-over (for lack of a better word), when we die.


Peace again to you!

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Re: Gehenna - just a rubbish tip outside Jerusalem?

Post #116

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:12 pm [Replying to onewithhim in post #114]

Oh, I agree that no one goes to a literal 'fiery' hell. I only used Lazarus and the Rich man as an example that our actions in this life do indeed count; we do not get an automatic clean slate and do-over (for lack of a better word), when we die.


Peace again to you!
I agree.

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