Gehenna - just a rubbish tip outside Jerusalem?

[Wootah]

Many here seem to believe Gehenna is just a rubbish tip outside Jerusalem and not a reference to hell.

Pulling an argument from this video (around the 16-minute mark):

Mark 9 vs 43-49 says: And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Why does Jesus talk about entering into life and the rubbish tip outside Jerusalem in the same sentence? Do you really believe people thought hey let's follow Jesus so we don't go into the rubbish tip outside Jerusalem or do you think they knew Jesus meant hell?

Also since that rubbish tip's fire is quenched now and has been for a long time then doesn't that mean Jesus is a liar when he says that the fire there never shall be quenched?

[Checkpoint]

HOW CAN DEATH BE ETERNAL PUNISHMENT?

If the punishment is: to be permanently non-existent, then it lasts until the person starts to exist again. In short the punishment isn't DYING momentary instant one passes from life to death (which both good and evil experience), it is perpetual/perpetual unending (everlasting) death.

But only the living would be aware the wicked one is permanently dead? Indeed thus the many biblical images of a permenent testimony to what had happened "everlasting smoke" , "undying worms/maggots"; a

Yes but this is connecting with the annihilation thread. Death is the end of punishment in the same way that ending a prison sentence means the end of the punishment.

If we have a criminal worthy of the sentence of death and we execute that sentence they are considered punished. Actually, I am sure there is some 'law' about if a hanged man survives the ordeal they can't be punished again (maybe that is just a Western fable). Anyway. If we have a criminal who has served their sentence in prison and we then execute them we are being unjust.

Either way, through execution, if deserved or through time in prison, the criminal has paid for their sentence. So a just God would let them into heaven. Only an unjust God would keep a person who has paid the price for their sin out of heaven.

So God would not annihilate a sinner because that would mean that God cannot justly make them serve their sentence and the act of annihilation would let them into heaven.

Where did you get the idea of a scenario that a person punished with non-existence can "start to exist again"? From left field perhaps.

God's sentence at the Judgment is complete and final. It is capital punishment.

Your reasonings about God being unfair, about a prison sentence, and about paying the price, have no basis in reality.

[Wootah]

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #101]

Where did you get the idea of a scenario that a person punished with non-existence can "start to exist again"? From left field perhaps.

God's sentence at the Judgment is complete and final. It is capital punishment.

Your reasonings about God being unfair, about a prison sentence, and about paying the price, have no basis in reality.

That's just insults - not debate.

Let's reason it out.

Assuming: reality, justice
If a person goes to jail and then completes their sentence then they leave the jail, correct? It's wrong to kill them afterwards or during the sentence, correct?
Let's face it a death sentence is a matter of expedience and practicality in our reality, not justice. Someone has committed a crime so bad that we cannot adequately make them pay for it, so we get rid of them. It's the best we can do. Therefore all people that have gone to jail but have left jail have paid for their crime.

If God punishes someone with non-existence then have they paid for their sins or not? If they have then they should go to heaven now. If they have not then why would God execute them rather than have them justly serve their sentence?

Now maybe the god we are discussing is not omnipotent and is worried someone might escape hell and so as a matter of expedience chooses to annihilate them but now that god is not omnipotent. But God is omnipotent, so execution/annihilation is off the table. He can safely look up prisoners so that they can serve their sentence. He is not unjust and executes people who are serving their sentence.

You guys just haven't thought your position through and until this year I hadn't really understood why annihilation is false. So fair is fair there.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to Wootah in post #102]

If God punishes someone with non-existence then have they paid for their sins or not? If they have then they should go to heaven now. If they have not then why would God execute them rather than have them justly serve their sentence?

That doesn't make sense, unless you're trying to avoid the 'eternal' part of non-existence.

If someone is sentenced to eternal non-existence, then how would they ever exist again to go to heaven? Doesn't make sense.

Lets apply your same reasoning to eternal imprisonment:

If God sentences someone to eternal imprisonment, then they have paid for their sins, and should now get to go to heaven.

That doesn't make sense, right?



Peace again to you.

[Wootah]

Peace to you,

[Replying to Wootah in post #102]

If God punishes someone with non-existence then have they paid for their sins or not? If they have then they should go to heaven now. If they have not then why would God execute them rather than have them justly serve their sentence?

That doesn't make sense, unless you're trying to avoid the 'eternal' part of non-existence.

If someone is sentenced to eternal non-existence, then how would they ever exist again to go to heaven? Doesn't make sense.

Lets apply your same reasoning to eternal imprisonment:

If God sentences someone to eternal imprisonment, then they have paid for their sins, and should now get to go to heaven.

That doesn't make sense, right?



Peace again to you.

Are you saying eternal imprisonment (which is what I believe) doesn't make sense or annihilation?

Or are you equating eternal imprisonment with annihilation (now that doesn't make sense ... Judge: "I sentence you to life in jail, now hang him.")?

How does an annihilated person not exist? Does God not remember them? Are you saying God is not omniscient?

[tam]

Peace to you Wootah,

Peace to you,

[Replying to Wootah in post #102]

If God punishes someone with non-existence then have they paid for their sins or not? If they have then they should go to heaven now. If they have not then why would God execute them rather than have them justly serve their sentence?

That doesn't make sense, unless you're trying to avoid the 'eternal' part of non-existence.

If someone is sentenced to eternal non-existence, then how would they ever exist again to go to heaven? Doesn't make sense.

Lets apply your same reasoning to eternal imprisonment:

If God sentences someone to eternal imprisonment, then they have paid for their sins, and should now get to go to heaven.

That doesn't make sense, right?



Peace again to you.

Are you saying eternal imprisonment (which is what I believe) doesn't make sense or annihilation?

I'm saying the reasoning you applied above doesn't make sense.

Or are you equating eternal imprisonment with annihilation

I am equating the 'eternal' nature of each. You are treating annihilation as temporary, but imprisonment as eternal. But annihilation is eternal. Therefore, you must apply the same reasoning to each.

Read my post again, perhaps. You should be able to see how your reasoning doesn't make sense if you consider annihilation (non-existence) as eternal. Try answering the questions, even if you think they are rhetorical.

How does an annihilated person not exist?

That is the meaning of annihilation, that is what people here mean when they use the term. Annihilation = utter destruction - both of the body and "soul" - nothing left of the person at all.

Does God not remember them? Are you saying God is not omniscient?

You can remember someone even if they no longer exist.



Peace again to you.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to Wootah in post #102]

Where did you get the idea of a scenario that a person punished with non-existence can "start to exist again"? From left field perhaps.

God's sentence at the Judgment is complete and final. It is capital punishment.

Your reasonings about God being unfair, about a prison sentence, and about paying the price, have no basis in reality.

That's just insults - not debate.

Let's reason it out.

Assuming: reality, justice

O.k., let's see if we can make a little progress, piece by piece.

What or whose reality? What or whose justice?

Assuming these?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to Wootah in post #102]

If a person goes to jail and then completes their sentence then they leave the jail, correct? It's wrong to kill them afterwards or during the sentence, correct?

These threads are about "hell", not about human law and any human what-ifs.
Human courts and their sentences will not be there; Divine ones will be.


Hell is about what Scripture calls "the Judgment" and "Eternal Judgment"(Hebrews 9:27; 6:2) , and "the wrath of God"(John 3:35).

Hell does not have anyone going to jail, or anyone completing their sentence.

Let's face it a death sentence is a matter of expedience and practicality in our reality, not justice. Someone has committed a crime so bad that we cannot adequately make them pay for it, so we get rid of them. It's the best we can do. Therefore all people that have gone to jail but have left jail have paid for their crime.

Yes, let's face it, hell is about a death sentence called The Second Death.

It's not the best we can do, because it is not our reality, but will be God's reality. The best He an do, in perfect flawless justice.

No one at that tribunal will be able to pay for their crime.

If God punishes someone with non-existence then have they paid for their sins or not? If they have then they should go to heaven now. If they have not then why would God execute them rather than have them justly serve their sentence.

They cannot pay for their sins, as Scripture clearly states applies to every one of us.

They cannot serve out their sentence, for that is eternal, and its fire is unquenchable.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #107]
I'm having somewhat of a problem following the reasoning on this thread.

1) "Hell" is not the Second Death but is mankind's common grave. Everyone who dies goes to the Bible "hell." Jesus was in "hell" for 3 days. He didn't go to a place of fire where people were burning. He was in his grave. So when you talk about "hell" you should be keeping that in mind, but everyone thinks that "hell" is the same as the Lake of Fire or Gehenna. It is completely different from the LOF and Gehenna. You'll notice that "hell" is thrown into the Lake of Fire in Revelation. Figure that one out. Truly, if "hell" is the common grave of mankind, then symbolically throwing it into the LOF (which symbolizes total destruction) would mean that the grave would no longer exist, because no one would ever die again (after the Millennial Reign and the obliteration of Satan and those who choose to follow him).

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #107]

2) You say that a person cannot pay for his sins. Not true. A person pays for his sins by dying. Death is the wages sin pays. ("The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23) So if someone commits willful sinning and never repents, he will die and never come back. (See I John 5:16.) Those ones who die but have repented and do not practice sins that God has told us not to commit, they will be in line for the Resurrection.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #107]

2) You say that a person cannot pay for his sins. Not true. A person pays for his sins by dying. Death is the wages sin pays. ("The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23)

I'm not sure that (the bold) is quite accurate.

If the wages of sin is death, then the person is being paid for their sin with death. Death is the consequence of sin. We sin... we die. We don't get a resurrection and a clean slate just because we died. Death does not blot out sins; death is a consequence of sins.

Otherwise, there would be no judgment at the second resurrection, because everyone who ever died would have a clean slate. But we know that men will give an accounting for their careless words and deeds. See Matt 12:36, 37; Romans 14:12; Hebrews 9:27 (also 28); Rev 20:13. Even the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man shows that people receive based upon the things said and done in THIS life. Luke 16:25

Christ is the One who covers us with His blood, so that our sins are blotted out, forgiven, so that we receive eternal life, so that there is no judgment for us, only forgiveness.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy