The Necessity Of God

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The Necessity Of God

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In 1768 Voltaire said: "If God did not exist it would be necessary to invent him."

Consider such necessity however you wish; to provide for the existence of human life, or as comfort for our fears, or as an answer to what lies beyond death, or . . . . Is what Voltaire said true or not? That human's at least need the idea of a supreme being in order to makes sense of our existence. and help us get through it.


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Re: The Necessity Of God

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myth-one.com wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:05 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:23 am Biblically everything God does is good; However , it might not necessarily initially be complete.
God declared everything which He created to be "good" immediately after creating it.
Well I believe everything he creates is good ( immediately or later, makes no difference) ....but did he decare everything complete?





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Re: The Necessity Of God

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Post by myth-one.com »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:28 am
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:05 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:23 am Biblically everything God does is good; However , it might not necessarily initially be complete.
God declared everything which He created to be "good" immediately after creating it.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:28 amWell I believe everything he creates is good ( immediately or later, makes no difference) ....but did he decare everything complete?
Yes, He did.
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. (Genesis 1:1)
"Created" is past tense, so the original creation of the heavens and earth was completed before verse two.

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Re: The Necessity Of God

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JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:23 am
myth-one.com wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:46 pm
theophile wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:00 pm After the summary of Genesis 1 (i.e., verse 1:1) you then see the story unfold in detail.
Genesis 1:1 is a statement of fact, not a summary.
So a statement of fact cannot also be a summary?
Of course. Gen 1:1 is a statement of fact and a summary of Gen 1 as a whole. In Gen 1 God creates the heavens and the earth. Gen 1:1 declares this literary fact and circumscribes (as summation) the narrative that follows.

The question is whether Gen 1:1 is an actual moment of creation. Or if the first moment of creation is Gen 1:3 when light comes into being.

i.e., does God create ex nihilo or are there pre-existing elements that God creates with? A pre-existing clay in the potter's hands, so to speak.

To my earlier point, I'll be the first to admit the text is ambiguous. We just can't say for certain and can only conclude murky origins. Meaning the only responsible thing is to focus on what we are told (or what the text itself goes on to say).

What I see unfold is a co-operative effort between God (which is itself a plurality in Gen 1, i.e., an 'us') and the elements. i.e., The land produces vegetation of all sorts at God's request. This speaks to me of pre-existing elements that God works with (or that work with God) to fulfill the initially stated fact and summation of the tale.

But to each their own. We have a tendency to impose narratives of divine omnipotence and favor powerful stories of creatio ex nihilo and a creation that is fully under God's control. I think we quickly see in Genesis 3 and beyond that is not the case, but hey, we all have our biases.

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Re: The Necessity Of God

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myth-one.com wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:33 am "Created" is past tense, so the original creation of the heavens and earth was completed before verse two.
Per a quick google search, "Earlier forms of the Hebrew language did not have strictly defined past, present, or future tenses, but merely perfective and imperfective aspects."

Your argument would do better to base itself on the perfect form of the verb being used in Gen 1:1. But again, that still fits my argument that Gen 1:1 is simply a summation to set the context for readers and let them know what to expect. And my reading does not require the addition of a whole other complicated story between the lines. O:)

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Re: The Necessity Of God

Post #25

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theophile wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:18 am I have still seen no biblical references that make a case for an original rebellion and fall from grace.

Your argument is basically:
1) In Genesis 1:1 heaven and earth were already completed and good (which is something you added to the text)
  • In the beginning God created the Heavens and the earth. So the heavens and the earth had been created at that point.
  • In Genesis 1:31, God describes everything which He made as "very good."
  • Therefore, the earth was created in verse one as "very good" because God created it that way.
    theophile wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:18 am 2) In Genesis 1:2 the earth is described as lifeless and without form (this is indeed the case)
    Yes, it is without form, void, and dark.
    theophile wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:18 am 3) To explain this (which again, only needs explaining because of your addition to Genesis 1:1), you need a story of rebellion and world destruction (which again, is something you added to the text to make sense of your first, needless addition.)
    ===================================

    In the book of Luke, when Satan tempted Jesus for forty days in the desert, Satan offered Jesus power over all the kingdoms of the earth:
    And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whosoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. (Luke 4:5-7)
    Jesus did not question the devil's authority to give him power over the earth. He knew that Satan did indeed have control over the earth and could give or share this power with whomever he pleased.

    Once God makes a covenant, or testament, or promise, He always keeps it. Satan was given rule over the earth. Although he rebelled against his creator, God did not and will not violate the agreement. Satan was given rule over the world and a ruler must be defeated and overthrown! This is one of the reasons Jesus is coming to the earth, to defeat Satan.

    So God gave Satan rule over the earth originally, and Satan decided sometime between the first two verses of the Bible to rebel against God:
    How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!... For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God... I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. (Isaiah 14:12-14)
    Lucifer, also known as Satan or the Devil, was not content in his position as earthly ruler. He wanted to be like the most high God. He wanted to exalt his throne above the stars, or angels, of God. As a result of their rebellious nature and their dominion over the earth, the good earth had reached the chaotic and unacceptable condition of formless, void, and dark in verse 2.
    ======================================
    myth-one.com wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:46 pm Yes, Lucifer (later the serpent, Satan or devil) was very well thought of by God at some time, as indicated by Lucifer being given power over the entire earth and responsibility over the fate of the earth sometime between verses 1 and 2.
    theophile wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:18 am See, you have fabricated a whole new story here. And I get it. You're not the first to read it this way.
    If you get it, why do you question it?

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Re: The Necessity Of God

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Post by JehovahsWitness »

myth-one.com wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:33 am
"Created" is past tense, so the original creation of the heavens and earth was completed before verse two.
Granted. And what's to stop verse two going back chronologically and adding detail about how he created the earth?
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Re: The Necessity Of God

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myth-one.com wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:04 pm If you get it, why do you question it?
Saying that I get it is not the same as thinking you are right. I question it because none of it is in the bible. i.e., there is no Satan in Genesis 1 unless you add the character in to suit your own purposes, which is what you have done (and Milton did before you).

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Re: The Necessity Of God

Post #28

Post by myth-one.com »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:47 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:33 am
"Created" is past tense, so the original creation of the heavens and earth was completed before verse two.
Granted. And what's to stop verse two going back chronologically and adding detail about how he created the earth?
Verse two has already been written. Verse two has no way to rewrite itself, although many humans make private interpretations of the verse.

One thing that verse two accomplishes is to describe the present condition of the earth which was completed in verse 1. It states the earth had become formless, void, and dark.

Although verse two clearly states that it is describing earthly conditions at that current time (now), some try to claim that the earth was created that way in verse one.

Did God create the earth formless, void, and dark?

Or did the earth reach that state after being created in good condition in verse one?

Choose one.

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