The Necessity Of God

[Miles]

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In 1768 Voltaire said: "If God did not exist it would be necessary to invent him."

Consider such necessity however you wish; to provide for the existence of human life, or as comfort for our fears, or as an answer to what lies beyond death, or . . . . Is what Voltaire said true or not? That human's at least need the idea of a supreme being in order to makes sense of our existence. and help us get through it.


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[JehovahsWitness]

If we understand "god" to be the first cause, since we are here, I would agree it would seem necessary that we got here somehow, "God" being the cause of the "how".







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[Miles]

If we understand "god" to be the first cause, since we are here, I would agree it would seem necessary that we got here somehow, "God" being the cause of the "how".

So, for those who don't understand "god" to be the first cause, to what extent do you see such people latching onto the idea of a god to makes sense of our existence and help us get through it?


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[JehovahsWitness]

If we understand "god" to be the first cause, since we are here, I would agree it would seem necessary that we got here somehow, "God" being the cause of the "how".

So, for those who don't understand "god" to be the first cause, to what extent do you see such people latching onto the idea of a god to makes sense of our existence and help us get through it?


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Well they would have to explain what they understand "god" to mean for me to comment .



JW

[theophile]

In 1768 Voltaire said: "If God did not exist it would be necessary to invent him."

[Replying to Miles in post #1]

Necessary for what?...

It may be helpful to consider temporal aspects (past, present, future).

Past-wise, is God necessary at the beginning of all things? I don't think so. The elements pre-existed God or at least they share as murky an ultimate origin. In the beginning, the world was already there. It was just formless and void. I don't think God is necessary in any sense for that original state of things.

Present-wise, God may be needed, but I don't think God is necessary. God is clearly absent from much of everyday life and I think this also fits the biblical testament. Per before, it is in a relatively formless and empty world where we first encounter God. There may be life through God's works, but that life may or may not be in / with God.

Future-wise, God is more a hope and aspiration than a necessity. The end times in which God is at last all in all is not guaranteed, but something that must be worked for and achieved. Same with all the promises made. (Prosperity. Resurrection.)

That said, if I think about that end and flex the meaning of necessity and Voltaire's words, there is something compelling about it all. I don't know if this is what Voltaire was hinting at, but even his use of the word 'invention' is fitting. i.e., God will not be unless we make it so, and isn't it necessary that we make it so?...

[Miles]

In 1768 Voltaire said: "If God did not exist it would be necessary to invent him."

[Replying to Miles in post #1]

Necessary for what?...

To make sense of our existence, and help us get through it.

Past-wise, is God necessary at the beginning of all things? I don't think so. The elements pre-existed God or at least they share as murky an ultimate origin.

You're stating this as fact. What is your evidence?

In the beginning, the world was already there. It was just formless and void. I don't think God is necessary in any sense for that original state of things.

I think we may have some trouble here. How can a world, which is generally taken to be material, be "formless and void"?

Present-wise, God may be needed, but I don't think God is necessary. God is clearly absent from much of everyday life and I think this also fits the biblical testament. Per before, it is in a relatively formless and empty world where we first encounter God. There may be life through God's works, but that life may or may not be in / with God.

Again, you're throwing me off with a "formless and empty world." Just how are you defining "world" here?

Future-wise, God is more a hope and aspiration than a necessity. The end times in which God is at last all in all is not guaranteed, but something that must be worked for and achieved. Same with all the promises made. (Prosperity. Resurrection.)

And the opportunity for such a guarantee that was only offered to a few. At least from the Christian god.



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[theophile]

Past-wise, is God necessary at the beginning of all things? I don't think so. The elements pre-existed God or at least they share as murky an ultimate origin.

You're stating this as fact. What is your evidence?

That is what the bible says. I'm stating it as biblical fact. (We're talking about the biblical God here, right?)

But granted, a case could be made for creatio ex nihilo. I would argue that the text is ambiguous, and is readable as God creating all things or as certain elements pre-existing or co-existing with God at the moment of creation. Notably tehom, the deep / ocean / abyss. While I tend towards the latter, the fact is we just can't say, which all the more makes it a murky origin to my point.

I think we may have some trouble here. How can a world, which is generally taken to be material, be "formless and void"?

That is what the bible says. i.e., Genesis 1:2 - "Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

So do you want me to explain the meaning of this verse? Okay... Go to the surface of the moon. Something like that is probably closest analog.

And the opportunity for such a guarantee that was only offered to a few. At least from the Christian god.

I don't know what this has to do with anything. Do you want to start a thread on grace, and whether it is universal or selective? We can do that. I tend towards the universal side of that spectrum. But I get it's hard to see that. Even Jesus had to be corrected by the Syrophoenician woman in Matthew 15:

26 Jesus replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

[Miles]

Past-wise, is God necessary at the beginning of all things? I don't think so. The elements pre-existed God or at least they share as murky an ultimate origin.

You're stating this as fact. What is your evidence?

That is what the bible says. I'm stating it as biblical fact. (We're talking about the biblical God here, right?)

We can talk about any kind of god you like; however, god as Voltaire regarded him was a god not personally involved in people's lives, like the Christian god. This is called Deism. When he died in Paris, Voltaire was not allowed to be buried in a church because he did not believe in the Christian god. Yet, I strongly suspect his reference to a necessary god was, in fact, directed at a theistic god.

I think we may have some trouble here. How can a world, which is generally taken to be material, be "formless and void"?

That is what the bible says. i.e., Genesis 1:2 - "Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Yes, some bibles say that, but other bibles do not.

Genesis 1:2

CEV
"The earth was barren, with no form of life; it was under a roaring ocean covered with darkness. But the Spirit of God was moving over the water."

ERV
"the earth was completely empty. There was nothing on the earth. Darkness covered the ocean, and God’s Spirit moved over the water."

EHV
"The earth was undeveloped and empty. Darkness covered the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters."

NLV
"The earth was an empty waste and darkness was over the deep waters. And the Spirit of God was moving over the top of the waters."

Now what?

So do you want me to explain the meaning of this verse? Okay... Go to the surface of the moon. Something like that is probably closest analog.

So you think the Moon is formless:

form·less
/ˈfôrmləs/
adjective: formless

without a clear or definite shape or structure.

and void

void
\ ˈvȯid
adjective: void

not containing anything : empty

Actually, the Moon does have a form, spherical; and it does contain something; 43% oxygen, 20% silicon, 19% magnesium, 10% iron, 3% calcium, 3% aluminum, 0.42% chromium, 0.18% titanium and 0.12% manganese.

And the opportunity for such a guarantee that was only offered to a few. At least from the Christian god.

I don't know what this has to do with anything.

Yeah, that was just a throwaway that could have better been left out.


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[myth-one.com]

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In 1768 Voltaire said: "If God did not exist it would be necessary to invent him."

Consider such necessity however you wish; to provide for the existence of human life, or as comfort for our fears, or as an answer to what lies beyond death, or . . . . Is what Voltaire said true or not? That human's at least need the idea of a supreme being in order to makes sense of our existence. and help us get through it.


,

I think mankind generally fears the unknown, and it bothers us when we can't understand things. Consequently, many years ago we would "invent" a god to explain something we could not understand.

So there was a Moon God, a Sun God, a God of Love, a God of War, God of the Sea, . . . a god of this and a god of that.

In Athens, Paul saw an alter to the unknown god:

For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. (Acts 17:23)

But as knowledge increased and we discovered the real world explanation of an unknown, there was no longer any reason for that associated God.

So yes, there is evidence to support Voltaire's statement.

Also, one can theorize that as knowledge increases, the number of Gods will reach either one or zero.

If mankind will never know everything -- then one should be an asymptote. That is, as knowledge increases we should approach one God.

If we ever reached the point that we knew everything, would we "become" gods?

Of course, if we reach that point, we would never have to ask that or any question ever again -- knowing everything.

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Regarding Christianity, those who believe in Christ as their Savior will be born again as spirits into the Kingdom of God. Those in the Kingdom of God can be referred to as godly.

And knowledge is indicated as something that born again believers will have:

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever have not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. (Matthew 13:10-13)

[Miles]

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In 1768 Voltaire said: "If God did not exist it would be necessary to invent him."

Consider such necessity however you wish; to provide for the existence of human life, or as comfort for our fears, or as an answer to what lies beyond death, or . . . . Is what Voltaire said true or not? That human's at least need the idea of a supreme being in order to makes sense of our existence. and help us get through it.


,

I think mankind generally fears the unknown, and it bothers us when we can't understand things. Consequently, many years ago we would "invent" a god to explain something we could not understand.

And I think such fear was exacerbated by those who desired to control others and relieve them of their hard earned pieces of silver.

So yes, there is evidence to support Voltaire's statement.

Also, one can theorize that as knowledge increases, the number of Gods will reach either one or zero.

If mankind will never know everything -- then one should be an asymptote. That is, as knowledge increases we should approach one God.

But which one? The god of Abraham, Indra of Hinduism? Ahura Mazda of the Zoroastrians? Or the Muslim Allah?

Regarding Christianity, those who believe in Christ as their Savior will be born again as spirits into the Kingdom of God. Those in the Kingdom of God can be referred to as godly.

Just another belief, of course.


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