Is death ... the end?

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Wootah
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Is death ... the end?

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Post by Wootah »

There seems to be some disagreement about what happens when we die.

Let's see what the Bible says:
https://www.biblehub.com/genesis/2-17.htm
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Did Adam and Eve die? Yes or No. So does God not know what death is or are you disagreeing with God?
https://biblehub.com/ephesians/2-1.htm
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Non Christians are regarded as dead but they all seem to be walking around (They had better get grafted in).

https://biblehub.com/john/11-26.htm
and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
John 11 deserves special mention. Jesus says to Martha and corrects her when she thinks Lazarus will rise on the last day. Not so Martha Jesus says, I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Jesus says we shall never die and admonishes Mary for thinking Lazarus will only rise on the last day. So either Jesus is a liar or we shall never die.

You know just to continue a theme, where Jesus dies on the cross and the curtain is torn, that is in effect no more separation between man and God. Symbolically when we pass through the curtain of death, we will find that we are more alive than ever, with God forever.

I really think many are preaching death still has a hold on Christians, still has a sting to it.

It's a serious subject. I strongly think people are making Jesus out to be a liar who disagree, I say that to highlight the implications and encourage civility in such a charged topic :).

Is death ... the end?

What is death and what does it mean according to the Bible?
Last edited by Wootah on Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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William
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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #111

Post by William »

[Replying to onewithhim in post #110]
"rubbish"
Tares...sorting process...I do not brush aside other than to gather said tares for burning. I challenge the beliefs. It is important to identify strawman fallacies as they present - part of the debating process.

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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #112

Post by myth-one.com »

William wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:48 am [Replying to onewithhim in post #110]
"rubbish"
Tares...sorting process...I do not brush aside other than to gather said tares for burning. I challenge the beliefs. It is important to identify strawman fallacies as they present - part of the debating process.
I dunno. I suppose we are not all accomplished debaters like yourself.

But it seems that you are taking on the duties of moderator when you choose to "gather tares" from the posts of Onewithhim.

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William
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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #113

Post by William »

tam wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:23 pm
[Replying to William in post #77]

Martha responds by saying that she knows her brother will rise again "in the resurrection at the last day"

[ - doing a quick search on this, I find no reference to OT beliefs regarding this, so for now will assume that this was an in-house belief that the extended family had, which was not something that the major branches of Judaism taught. I am certainly open to being directed to information which might show me differently...]
But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:2

Your dead will live; their bodies will rise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in the dust! Isaiah 26:19
So we see that the family may have believed in the idea that humans were bodies rather than spirits within bodies, but there have always been different Jewish beliefs about death.

1: There is an afterlife: Texts from every era in Jewish life identify a world where people go when they die. In the Bible it’s an underworld called Sheol. In the rabbinic tradition it’s known by a number of names, including the yeshiva shel mallah, the school on high. The Hebrew word for skies, shamayim, also came to refer to heaven.

2: Heaven has open door policy: Heaven is not a gated community. The righteous of any people and any faith have a place in it. Our actions, not our specific beliefs, determine our fate. No concept of Hell exists in Judaism. The closest we get is the fate of apostate (a person who renounces God, faith and morality in this world), who is said to be “cut off from his kin.”

3: The afterlife can take many forms: Professor A.J. Levine expresses this truth most eloquently: “Jewish beliefs in the afterlife are as diverse as Judaism itself, from the traditional view expecting the unity of flesh and spirit in a resurrected body, to the idea that we live on in our children and grandchildren, to a sense of heaven (perhaps with lox and bagels rather than harps and haloes).”

4: The afterlife is here on earth: One strand of Jewish thought sees heaven as a transitory place where souls reside after death. They reside there until they reunite with their physical bodies at the time when the Messiah comes. This approach differs from reincarnation since the return to life happens only in the messianic era, not as a regular occurrence, as in Hinduism.

5: We live on through others: The Reform Jewish prayerbook expresses this idea through the metaphor of a leaf and a tree. A leaf drops to the ground, but it nourishes the soil so more plants and trees spring up. The same is true in our lives. We nourish the future through the influence we have on those who follow us. It can happen in unimaginable ways.
From novelist Dara Horn: [LINK]


As it turned out, Lazarus' body was raised after being dead a matter of days, not from the dust of thousands of years.

Jewish death & dying
Procedures and practices

1. Jewish Views and Beliefs Concerning Death
Judaism believes that every moment of life is precious and of infinite value.
We do not consider pain or suffering as mitigating factors that obviate the
sanctity or importance of life.
Jews believe in a life after death - the immortality of the soul and the physical
resurrection of the body at a time in the future.
[LINK]

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tam
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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #114

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
William wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:53 am
tam wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:23 pm
[Replying to William in post #77]

Martha responds by saying that she knows her brother will rise again "in the resurrection at the last day"

[ - doing a quick search on this, I find no reference to OT beliefs regarding this, so for now will assume that this was an in-house belief that the extended family had, which was not something that the major branches of Judaism taught. I am certainly open to being directed to information which might show me differently...]
But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:2

Your dead will live; their bodies will rise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in the dust! Isaiah 26:19
So we see that the family may have believed in the idea that humans were bodies rather than spirits within bodies, but there have always been different Jewish beliefs about death.
For sure, there have been (and are) different Jewish beliefs about death (though the text doesn't state anything about them believing or not believing that humans are spirits in bodies or just bodies).

You had said you were open to begin directed to information that showed you this (rising on the last day) was more than just an 'in-house' belief. So I posted the quotes from Daniel and Isaiah. If you wanted to go a bit further even, in Acts we have the Pharisees being spoken of as those who believed in the resurrection, angels, etc (which makes sense considering Daniel and Isaiah), and the Sadducees being spoken of as those who believed in none of those things. (Acts 23)
As it turned out, Lazarus' body was raised after being dead a matter of days, not from the dust of thousands of years.
Indeed. Because as Christ said in response to Martha, HE is the Resurrection and the Life. He could raise the dead (then, and at the first and second resurrections to come), as well as heal the blind and the lame, etc.

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William
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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #115

Post by William »

[Replying to tam in post #114]
For sure, there have been (and are) different Jewish beliefs about death (though the text doesn't state anything about them believing or not believing that humans are spirits in bodies or just bodies).
Here we are prompted to give our account of what a "Spirit" is.
You had said you were open to begin directed to information that showed you this (rising on the last day) was more than just an 'in-house' belief. So I posted the quotes from Daniel and Isaiah. If you wanted to go a bit further even, in Acts we have the Pharisees being spoken of as those who believed in the resurrection, angels, etc (which makes sense considering Daniel and Isaiah), and the Sadducees being spoken of as those who believed in none of those things. (Acts 23)
Correct. "In House" can also refer to The Beliefs of the collective Houses of Israel as in "What Jews Believe re death"
Overall point being that it appears that there isn't conflict about the question of death now.

Search for "the pharisees and the sadducees"
The Pharisees' Judaism is what we practice today, as we can't make sacrifices at the Temple and instead we worship in synagogues. The Sadducees were the wealthy upper class, who were involved with the priesthood. They completely rejected oral law, and unlike the Pharisees, their lives revolved around the Temple.

Search for "the sadducees beliefs about death"
The Sadducees did not believe in resurrection of the dead, but believed (contrary to the claim of Josephus) in the traditional Jewish concept of Sheol for those who had died. According to the Christian Acts of the Apostles: The Sadducees did not believe in resurrection, whereas the Pharisees did.

Search for "Josephus on sadducees beliefs"
According to Josephus, the Sadducees believed that: There is no fate. God does not commit evil. Man has free will; "man has the free choice of good or evil".

It appears that the sadducees beliefs about death were aligned to the idea of The Spiritual aspect of afterlife experience...where the individual continues to experience being an individual conscious awareness rather than that consciousness turning to dust along with the body.

Indeed. Because as Christ said in response to Martha, HE is the Resurrection and the Life. He could raise the dead (then, and at the first and second resurrections to come), as well as heal the blind and the lame, etc.

Thus, why I say that biblical Jesus was a Mystic.

Obviously too, Jesus as a Mystic was engaging with those who took on the pharisees beliefs as their own.

Those who believe they will need to be resurrected if they want to continue their experience of being alive, require something other than themselves to have this happen for them.

Those who did not believe that is the case - who took on the sadducees beliefs about death - would naturally have no need for someone to resurrect them.

What becomes questionable is why one is toted as acceptable belief while the other is not.

Where the sadducees beliefs about death are questionable is in...

Search for "Sheol"
To the Hebrew mind Sheol was simply the state or abode of the dead. ... The grave was the resting place of the body from which the spirit had departed, while Sheol was the resting place of departed spirits, or personalities. Usually Sheol was thought of 'as being deep down in the earth, as hell is often thought of today.

The priesthood tends to tamper too much in that regard by setting up conditions which are believed to be true - like the Christians priests have done re "Hell".
Not that these conditions are necessarily untrue - but perhaps because they do not represent all the possible.

More study is necessary...

What interests me about the seeming conflict of the two beliefs is that re "Jah Saves" I can understand the attached belief re those who think resurrection, as - even if the truth was that the individual immediately experiences the next phase, if that individual also believes that they won't be resurrected and placed in an undesirable situation [re sheol] then their experience will be in a desirable place [Somewhere in Heaven or on a New Earth free from evil-bullies]...whereas with the sadducees belief it is more a case of there is no savior and you just have to experience whatever your overall character-personality dictates, be that desirable or otherwise...

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Re: Is death ... the end?

Post #116

Post by onewithhim »

BTW, "Sheol" is the same as "Hell" or "Hades"........Mankind's common grave. It is not a place where anybody is conscious.

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