Is death ... the end?

[Wootah]

There seems to be some disagreement about what happens when we die.

Let's see what the Bible says:

https://www.biblehub.com/genesis/2-17.htm
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Did Adam and Eve die? Yes or No. So does God not know what death is or are you disagreeing with God?

https://biblehub.com/ephesians/2-1.htm
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins

Non Christians are regarded as dead but they all seem to be walking around (They had better get grafted in).

https://biblehub.com/john/11-26.htm
and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 11 deserves special mention. Jesus says to Martha and corrects her when she thinks Lazarus will rise on the last day. Not so Martha Jesus says, I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Jesus says we shall never die and admonishes Mary for thinking Lazarus will only rise on the last day. So either Jesus is a liar or we shall never die.

You know just to continue a theme, where Jesus dies on the cross and the curtain is torn, that is in effect no more separation between man and God. Symbolically when we pass through the curtain of death, we will find that we are more alive than ever, with God forever.

I really think many are preaching death still has a hold on Christians, still has a sting to it.

It's a serious subject. I strongly think people are making Jesus out to be a liar who disagree, I say that to highlight the implications and encourage civility in such a charged topic .

Is death ... the end?

What is death and what does it mean according to the Bible?

[Miles]

[Replying to Miles in post #29]

Such unsupported statements don't really help the debate process as they are inflexible, which leaves no room for actual debate. False Dilemma/False Dichotomy is a fallacy re that.

It doesn't matter that you prefaced that with the reason; "but lacking any good, rational evidence," because a False Dilemma/False Dichotomy is what it is regardless. Prefacing it doesn't change that fact.

Just because you have discovered no good, rational evidence to support your position, does not mean that the use of False Dilemma/False Dichotomy is validated.

You made the unsupported statement "it all comes down to unsupported claims sprouting from wishful (needful) thinking" and it is not up to anyone to provide evidence which might show your unsupported statement to be incorrect. If you have evidence to support that all folk who believe that death of their body is not the end of their experience amounts to "unsupported claims sprouting from wishful (needful) thinking", you need to also support your claim on the matter, and show that this is the case.

Otherwise your statement remains False Dilemma/False Dichotomy.

Oh no, you don't get away that easily. You still have my question to answer before I address any of your comments.

"Obviously you believe there is not good reason to think death is the end. Good, then show your "good, rational evidence."..... I await."

.

[William]

Oh no, you don't get away that easily. You still have my question to answer before I address any of your comments.

"Obviously you believe there is not good reason to think death is the end. Good, then show your "good, rational evidence."..... I await."

.

You made the unsupported statement "it all comes down to unsupported claims sprouting from wishful (needful) thinking" and it is not up to anyone to provide evidence which might show your unsupported statement to be incorrect. If you have evidence to support that all folk who believe that death of their body is not the end of their experience amounts to "unsupported claims sprouting from wishful (needful) thinking", you need to also support your claim on the matter, and show that this is the case.

Otherwise your statement remains False Dilemma/False Dichotomy.

[Miles]

Oh no, you don't get away that easily. You still have my question to answer before I address any of your comments.

"Obviously you believe there is not good reason to think death is the end. Good, then show your "good, rational evidence."..... I await."

.

You made the unsupported statement "it all comes down to unsupported claims sprouting from wishful (needful) thinking" and it is not up to anyone to provide evidence which might show your unsupported statement to be incorrect.

But this isn't even the issue of the false dilemma you accused me of.

Here, from your post (#26)

Is death ... the end?

So far there's no good reason to think it isn't.

Of course there are a lot of religious and mystical folk saying otherwise, [So far there's no good reason to think it is] but lacking any good, rational evidence it all comes down to unsupported claims sprouting from wishful (needful) thinking, which has produced quite an assortment of never-never lands. But why not, it seems to be thee universal fear demanding a resolution no matter where one falls on the Stanford-Binet.



.

False Dilemma/False Dichotomy

Now, the only possible false dilemma here would be one involving the two options I presented.

1. there's no good reason to think "death is the end" isn't, OR
2. there's no good reason to think "death is the end" is

what else could it thought to be?

Otherwise your statement remains False Dilemma/False Dichotomy.

Good grief! Here, from Wikipedia.

"A false dilemma, also referred to as false dichotomy, IS an informal fallacy based on a premise that erroneously limits what options are available. The source of the fallacy lies not in an invalid form of inference but in a false premise. This premise has the form of a disjunctive claim: it asserts that one among a number of alternatives must be true. This disjunction is problematic because it oversimplifies the choice by excluding viable alternatives."

Note that a False Dilemma/False Dichotomy requires excluded viable alternatives. And that without such excluded alternatives it's simply a complete set of options. Got a viable alternative that can fit alongside

1. there's no good reason to think it isn't, OR
2. there's no good reason to think it is

...................................... ?

If so, bring it on.


.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #16]

The Scripture says that Jesus ALONE had immortality. (I Timothy 6:16)

No, not so, onewithhim.

Read again what Paul wrote. This time a little more carefully, and in its context.

Jehovah alone has no beginning and no ending.

Jehovah alone dwells in unapproachable light, and has thus not been seen nor can be seen, in human earthly history.

1 Timothy 6:
14 Keep this commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 which the blessed and only Sovereign One—the King of kings and Lord of lords—will bring about in His own time.
16 He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

You just quoted what I quoted to show you that Jesus was said by Paul to be the only one who was immortal, besides, of course, the Father, Jehovah. It's right there in the verse! JESUS is immortal, and no other spirit Beings.

When it says "no one has seen," that means that no man has seen Jesus when he is dwelling in unapproachable light. Humans can't see him in his glorious spirit state.

[William]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #16]

The Scripture says that Jesus ALONE had immortality. (I Timothy 6:16)

No, not so, onewithhim.

Read again what Paul wrote. This time a little more carefully, and in its context.

Jehovah alone has no beginning and no ending.

Jehovah alone dwells in unapproachable light, and has thus not been seen nor can be seen, in human earthly history.

1 Timothy 6:
14 Keep this commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 which the blessed and only Sovereign One—the King of kings and Lord of lords—will bring about in His own time.
16 He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

You just quoted what I quoted to show you that Jesus was said by Paul to be the only one who was immortal, besides, of course, the Father, Jehovah. It's right there in the verse! JESUS is immortal, and no other spirit Beings.

When it says "no one has seen," that means that no man has seen Jesus when he is dwelling in unapproachable light. Humans can't see him in his glorious spirit state.

Yes - but what did Jesus say about himself in regard to being immortal. And what did he say about others in regard to being immortal?

Rule of thumb re scriptural statements about biblical Jesus.

IF;
any such statement contradicts or is otherwise inconsistent with what biblical Jesus stated about himself,
THEN;
regardless that it is 'in the bible', biblical Jesus' statements about himself, take precedence over any other biblical statements about him.

Rule of Thumb = a broadly accurate guide or principle, based on practice rather than theory.

Take Precedence = to be more important (than something else)

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #16]

The Scripture says that Jesus ALONE had immortality. (I Timothy 6:16)

No, not so, onewithhim.

Read again what Paul wrote. This time a little more carefully, and in its context.

Jehovah alone has no beginning and no ending.

Jehovah alone dwells in unapproachable light, and has thus not been seen nor can be seen, in human earthly history.

1 Timothy 6:
14 Keep this commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 which the blessed and only Sovereign One—the King of kings and Lord of lords—will bring about in His own time.
16 He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

You just quoted what I quoted to show you that Jesus was said by Paul to be the only one who was immortal, besides, of course, the Father, Jehovah. It's right there in the verse!

JESUS is immortal, and no other spirit Beings.

When it says "no one has seen," that means that no man has seen Jesus when he is dwelling in unapproachable light. Humans can't see him in his glorious spirit state.

What is right there in those verses is plain to see. Those verses(other than verse 14) are about Jehovah, not Jesus.

To say "who only has" cannot, by definition and usage, refer to someone else besides.

What Paul says about the One we cannot see, stems from Exodus 33, and what Jehovah then told Moses.

Paul does not say what you add, "besides, of course, the Father, Jehovah", and in no way assumes or implies what you do.

[William]

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #36]

What Paul says about the One we cannot see, stems from Exodus 33, and what Jehovah then told Moses.

Right there we seem to have an issue as Jehovah was most obviously visible to Moses, so cannot himself have been "The One We Cannot See".

Furthermore, there was confirmation that when Jesus referred to his Father, he was speaking of The Voice of The Father not any image of The Father that Moses saw.

The One We Cannot See is The One We Still Can Hear.

What does Jesus speak of in relation to hearing The Fathers Voice?

That would be where to focus...

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #16]

The Scripture says that Jesus ALONE had immortality. (I Timothy 6:16)

No, not so, onewithhim.

Read again what Paul wrote. This time a little more carefully, and in its context.

Jehovah alone has no beginning and no ending.

Jehovah alone dwells in unapproachable light, and has thus not been seen nor can be seen, in human earthly history.

1 Timothy 6:
14 Keep this commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 which the blessed and only Sovereign One—the King of kings and Lord of lords—will bring about in His own time.
16 He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

You just quoted what I quoted to show you that Jesus was said by Paul to be the only one who was immortal, besides, of course, the Father, Jehovah. It's right there in the verse! JESUS is immortal, and no other spirit Beings.

When it says "no one has seen," that means that no man has seen Jesus when he is dwelling in unapproachable light. Humans can't see him in his glorious spirit state.

Yes - but what did Jesus say about himself in regard to being immortal. And what did he say about others in regard to being immortal?

Rule of thumb re scriptural statements about biblical Jesus.

IF;
any such statement contradicts or is otherwise inconsistent with what biblical Jesus stated about himself,
THEN;
regardless that it is 'in the bible', biblical Jesus' statements about himself, take precedence over any other biblical statements about him.

Rule of Thumb = a broadly accurate guide or principle, based on practice rather than theory.

Take Precedence = to be more important (than something else)

OK, what did Jesus say about his immortality? What did he say about humans' immortality?

[William]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #16]

The Scripture says that Jesus ALONE had immortality. (I Timothy 6:16)

No, not so, onewithhim.

Read again what Paul wrote. This time a little more carefully, and in its context.

Jehovah alone has no beginning and no ending.

Jehovah alone dwells in unapproachable light, and has thus not been seen nor can be seen, in human earthly history.

1 Timothy 6:
14 Keep this commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 which the blessed and only Sovereign One—the King of kings and Lord of lords—will bring about in His own time.
16 He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

You just quoted what I quoted to show you that Jesus was said by Paul to be the only one who was immortal, besides, of course, the Father, Jehovah. It's right there in the verse! JESUS is immortal, and no other spirit Beings.

When it says "no one has seen," that means that no man has seen Jesus when he is dwelling in unapproachable light. Humans can't see him in his glorious spirit state.

Yes - but what did Jesus say about himself in regard to being immortal. And what did he say about others in regard to being immortal?

Rule of thumb re scriptural statements about biblical Jesus.

IF;
any such statement contradicts or is otherwise inconsistent with what biblical Jesus stated about himself,
THEN;
regardless that it is 'in the bible', biblical Jesus' statements about himself, take precedence over any other biblical statements about him.

Rule of Thumb = a broadly accurate guide or principle, based on practice rather than theory.

Take Precedence = to be more important (than something else)

OK, what did Jesus say about his immortality? What did he say about humans' immortality?

Perhaps he said nothing about those things?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #16]

The Scripture says that Jesus ALONE had immortality. (I Timothy 6:16)

No, not so, onewithhim.

Read again what Paul wrote. This time a little more carefully, and in its context.

Jehovah alone has no beginning and no ending.

Jehovah alone dwells in unapproachable light, and has thus not been seen nor can be seen, in human earthly history.

1 Timothy 6:
14 Keep this commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 which the blessed and only Sovereign One—the King of kings and Lord of lords—will bring about in His own time.
16 He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

You just quoted what I quoted to show you that Jesus was said by Paul to be the only one who was immortal, besides, of course, the Father, Jehovah. It's right there in the verse! JESUS is immortal, and no other spirit Beings.

When it says "no one has seen," that means that no man has seen Jesus when he is dwelling in unapproachable light. Humans can't see him in his glorious spirit state.

Yes - but what did Jesus say about himself in regard to being immortal. And what did he say about others in regard to being immortal?

Rule of thumb re scriptural statements about biblical Jesus.

IF;
any such statement contradicts or is otherwise inconsistent with what biblical Jesus stated about himself,
THEN;
regardless that it is 'in the bible', biblical Jesus' statements about himself, take precedence over any other biblical statements about him.

Rule of Thumb = a broadly accurate guide or principle, based on practice rather than theory.

Take Precedence = to be more important (than something else)

OK, what did Jesus say about his immortality? What did he say about humans' immortality?

Perhaps he said nothing about those things?

Well, then, perhaps he knew we would get that information from his disciples after he went back to heaven.