Is death ... the end?

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Wootah
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Is death ... the end?

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Post by Wootah »

There seems to be some disagreement about what happens when we die.

Let's see what the Bible says:
https://www.biblehub.com/genesis/2-17.htm
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Did Adam and Eve die? Yes or No. So does God not know what death is or are you disagreeing with God?
https://biblehub.com/ephesians/2-1.htm
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Non Christians are regarded as dead but they all seem to be walking around (They had better get grafted in).

https://biblehub.com/john/11-26.htm
and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
John 11 deserves special mention. Jesus says to Martha and corrects her when she thinks Lazarus will rise on the last day. Not so Martha Jesus says, I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Jesus says we shall never die and admonishes Mary for thinking Lazarus will only rise on the last day. So either Jesus is a liar or we shall never die.

You know just to continue a theme, where Jesus dies on the cross and the curtain is torn, that is in effect no more separation between man and God. Symbolically when we pass through the curtain of death, we will find that we are more alive than ever, with God forever.

I really think many are preaching death still has a hold on Christians, still has a sting to it.

It's a serious subject. I strongly think people are making Jesus out to be a liar who disagree, I say that to highlight the implications and encourage civility in such a charged topic :).

Is death ... the end?

What is death and what does it mean according to the Bible?
Last edited by Wootah on Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is death ... the end

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Post by Tcg »

[Replying to Wootah in post #1]

There are a few questions in the text of your O.P. and the title seems to be a question even though it has no question mark. What is your question for debate?


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Re: Is death ... the end

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Post by Wootah »

Tcg wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:07 am [Replying to Wootah in post #1]

There are a few questions in the text of your O.P. and the title seems to be a question even though it has no question mark. What is your question for debate?


Tcg
Is death ... the end?

It felt clear that we are debating what is death and what does it mean according to the Bible. So let's go with that.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Is death ... the end?

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Post by myth-one.com »


Sleep Versus Death


Death: the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an animal or plant. -- Random House College Dictionary

All physical bodies will die. Every tick of the clock you get closer to the maximum limit of one hundred and twenty years of human life. Most of us will not even get close to the upper age limit. The key to the word death is its finality; the end of life, the total and permanent cessation of all vital functions. Death is the absence of life. The scriptures state:
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing... (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
Life and death are mutually exclusive. Everyone is either alive or dead. You can approach very near to death, but you are not dead. Once you cross over to the dead there is no way any man can bring you back to life! Doctors do not bring people back from the dead. Consider a drowning victim who has been under water for twenty minutes with no pulse or signs of life. If he is shocked, given an injection of adrenaline, and CPR, and is "brought back to life," then he was never dead. All of his vital functions had not yet ceased.

The Bible describes physical and spiritual forms of life. Spiritual beings consist of the Trinity of God and the angels. Satan and his subordinates are included as angels. The physical life forms consist of every life form which is not spiritual. This includes plants, insects, germs, viruses, fish, birds, animals, and others. Man is an animal. All physical life forms share one very important characteristic. All die! Spiritual life forms live for eternity. This is the characteristic which distinguishes man from spiritual beings.

Since death only applies to the physical world, let's examine what the Bible states regarding the death of the animal which we are concerned about most. That is, man.

According to the Bible, two separate and distinct deaths can befall man. The first and most obvious death ends our short one hundred and twenty year maximum life which we are presently living on the earth. After man sinned, God placed an upper limit on the life of the physical human body:
And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years. (Genesis 6:3)
Our second possible physical death is described in the book of Revelation:
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:14-15)
Individuals whose names are not written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire and suffer their second death. They die because they are physical bodies which can die. They are physical bodies because they have never believed in Jesus and been born again as a spirit which cannot die. It is very important to notice that this death is actually labeled as a death! That is, it is final and eternal. There is no recovery or return from the second death! This truly fits our definition of the word death. It is the permanent cessation of all vital life functions.

Let's examine how the Bible considers man's first death. When the first death of any man is discussed in the Bible, the words used to describe that event are sleep or rest. Only man, among all the animals is said to sleep, slumber, or rest when he dies. In fact, when Jesus raised people from the dead, He often stated they were not dead, but simply asleep:
Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. (John 11:11)

And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn... (Mark 5:39-40)
If true death is final, then our first death is not death at all. It does not meet the definition of death. That is, it is not final or permanent. As doctors and medical technicians "restore life" to someone after their heart has stopped for twenty minutes, God is going to restore the physical life of nonbelievers many years after their first "death" at the second resurrection. In many cases after having been "dead" for thousands of years. Therefore, their first death is not actually a death because it is not final and permanent. They will live again. It is final to us here on the earth. That is, man cannot restore another man's life after his first death, only God can. So Jesus was correct when He stated that Lazarus' stinking body which had been lying in the grave for four days was only sleeping:
Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days. (John 11:39)
When pressed, Jesus spoke plainly and stated that Lazarus was indeed dead. Plainly indicates that Jesus spoke in terms of how man understands death:
Then Jesus said unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. (John 11:14)
In neither case, when Jesus said Lazarus was asleep nor when He said Lazarus was dead, was He incorrect. Both statements are true! One was from God's point of view and the other was from man's point of view. From God's perspective there is one true death, the second death.

Once one understands the two deaths described in the Bible, it becomes easier to understand the scriptures. However, one needs to distinguish which "death" is being referred to in the context of each verse. Words such as sleep, slumber, and rest are used to refer to man's first death. Words such as die, death, and perish are used to refer to man's permanent second death. For example:
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezekiel 18:4)
Since die is used, this scripture refers to the second death. Otherwise, the word sleep or rest would have been used. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Therefore, we are all headed for the second death. The good news is that God intervenes:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
Once again, a key word denoting permanence indicates that Jesus is saving us from the second death. That word is perish. If believing in Jesus kept Christians from perishing in the first death, then certainly people like Peter and Paul and millions of other dead Christians would still be alive today! This would invalidate the one hundred and twenty-year limit placed on the human body. Since we are only sleeping or resting in our graves, this word perish indicates the second death.

Perish means to disappear forever, which is what happens to those who suffer the second death. Everyone who dies the first death will be resurrected, whether Christian or not. Therefore, when we die the first death, we do not perish. Since God gave His only Son so that those who believe in Him should not perish, this promise protects us from the second death. From God's prospective, we do not perish due to our first death, we simply rest:
For we which have believed do enter into rest... (Hebrews 4:3)
The "rest" used in this context indicates what happens to Christians after our first physical death. We are said to "Rest in Peace," indicating exactly what the Bible confirms:
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing... (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
The dead are at total rest. They know and are aware of absolutely nothing! They do not even know they are dead. They are not in heaven with God or burning in hellfire or in purgatory. There are not spirits or ghosts of dead humans running around the earth spooking people. That fact should ruin many bad movie and book plots for you, but it is a fact! The only spirits and ghosts around are God and the angels.

God has existed from the beginning, and He created the angels.

The only way any human can gain everlasting life is to be born a second time of the Spirit (God) -- as a spiritual bodied being. This will occur at and after the Second Coming.

To date, no human has been born again.

Christians are presently heirs to everlasting life under the New Testament Covenant.

Their names are written in the Book of Life as heirs of everlasting spiritual life.

They will receive their inheritance when the covenant is probated at the Second Coming.

That is when they will be born again.

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Re: Is death ... the end?

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Post by tam »

Peace to you,
[Replying to Wootah in post #1]

Is death ... the end?

What is death and what does it mean according to the Bible?
Only the second death is the end.


Adam and Eve did not die the second death. Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowing good (life) and bad (death), and therefore, death entered into them on that day, at that moment (dying, you will die). One cannot eat of death and not die (though one could be healed from that death if one were to eat from the Tree of LIFE, Christ Jaheshua). But death entering into Adam and Eve is not the second or even the first death.


The first death is the death that everyone will experience (at least until Christ returns, because if one is IN Christ, then one will be caught up and changed when He returns and so will never die. John 11:26; At the same time, those in Christ who died, will live - John 11:25, because the dead in Christ are resurrected when He returns.) When Abraham died, and was buried, that is an example of the first death.


The second death IS the end.

The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Rev 20:13, 14

if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 2Peter 2:6

In like manner, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who sustain the punishment of eternal fire. Jude 1:7


You will note that Hades ("Hell") is also thrown into the lake of fire, and destroyed. No one goes back into "hell" (Hades/the world of the dead). There IS no more "hell' (Hades/the world of the dead). There is no more need for 'hell' because there are no more dead, ever. No more mourning, no more death, no more tears, because the former things have passed away (Rev 21:4).

You will also note that there is nothing left of Sodom and Gomorrah; those cities were consumed by fire, rendered into ash (and smoke). That this is the example we have been given regarding those who receive judgment and the second death/lake of fire. That is the death that is the end. The second death.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Is death ... the end

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Wootah wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:51 am Is death ... the end?
Some complicated and confusing responses so far... Would help to simplify cause I think the answer is simple. The bible teaches resurrection of the dead (see Corinthians 15 for instance).

So no, death is not the end. In the end, death will lose its sting and be conquered. We will have the power to resurrect the dead, and bring all things back to God, so that God can at last become all in all.

i.e., from Corinthians 15:
The last enemy to be destroyed is death. ... And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all.
That said, I do think that resurrection is more of a hope than a certainty. It is not guaranteed, but a possibility that needs to be worked for and achieved. As is the true end when all things are at last in communion with God.

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Re: Is death ... the end

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Post by myth-one.com »

theophile wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:43 pm The bible teaches resurrection of the dead (see Corinthians 15 for instance).
The Bible teaches resurrection from the first death.
theophile wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:43 pm So no, death is not the end.
The second death is the end of life for nonbelievers.
theophile wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:43 pmIn the end, death will lose its sting and be conquered. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
Yes, when the last living human being is either born again as a spiritual being into the Kingdom of God, or cast into the lake of fire and suffer his or her second and permanent death, death will have been destroyed -- as there are no more living humans at that time.

Since there are no living humans, death of humans will have been conquered!

The age of man will be over at that instant.

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Re: Is death ... the end

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myth-one.com wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:44 pm
theophile wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:43 pm The bible teaches resurrection of the dead (see Corinthians 15 for instance).
The Bible teaches resurrection from the first death.
theophile wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:43 pm So no, death is not the end.
The second death is the end of life for nonbelievers.
theophile wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:43 pmIn the end, death will lose its sting and be conquered. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
Yes, when the last living human being is either born again as a spiritual being into the Kingdom of God, or cast into the lake of fire and suffer his or her second and permanent death, death will have been destroyed -- as there are no more living humans at that time.

Since there are no living humans, death of humans will have been conquered!

The age of man will be over at that instant.
What is the point of creation if the ultimate goal is to have it all die out in favor of a 'spiritual' Kingdom of God? ...
Why would God make human beings in God's image, and give us dominion over the earth, only to move history towards the end of the age of man? ...

It all seems like an exercise in futility and a huge waste of time for everyone involved.

Which ultimately leads me to believe that something is seriously wrong with this interpretation of things.

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Re: Is death ... the end

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Post by myth-one.com »

theophile wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:25 am What is the point of creation if the ultimate goal is to have it all die out in favor of a 'spiritual' Kingdom of God? ...
Why would God make human beings in God's image, and give us dominion over the earth, only to move history towards the end of the age of man? ...

It all seems like an exercise in futility and a huge waste of time for everyone involved.

Which ultimately leads me to believe that something is seriously wrong with this interpretation of things.
Humans die, while spirits live forever.

Originally, spirits were assigned to care for the earth after its creation. Some rebelled under Satan. Those who rebelled under Satan are imprisoned and need to be replaced.

Angels are immortal spiritual bodied beings.

So why create new angels and risk being stuck with more rebels -- eternally?

So God returned, re-created the earth, and created mankind a little lower that the angels.

The angels who will replace those rebellious angels will come from those humans who accept Jesus as their Savior and Lord.

Those who do so will be born again as spiritual beings equal unto the angels.

Those choosing not to believe will perish -- as they remain physical humans.

Thus the reason for creating mankind is to replace those angels which left their first estate (the earth):
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. (Jude 1:6)
When that is accomplished, there is no longer any need for mankind.

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Re: Is death ... the end

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Post by theophile »

myth-one.com wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:47 pm
theophile wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:25 am What is the point of creation if the ultimate goal is to have it all die out in favor of a 'spiritual' Kingdom of God? ...
Why would God make human beings in God's image, and give us dominion over the earth, only to move history towards the end of the age of man? ...

It all seems like an exercise in futility and a huge waste of time for everyone involved.

Which ultimately leads me to believe that something is seriously wrong with this interpretation of things.
Humans die, while spirits live forever.
But that's the point of resurrection.. Yes, humans die. But for God, all things will become possible. Including what may currently be impossible such as the restoration of physical life to those long dead.

Do you deny God's power to bring physical life back to physical beings? Was that not always the intention in Genesis 2-3, for Adam and Eve, as physical beings, to eventually enjoy the tree of life?... It was not our physicality that denied us access, but God's concern over granting it to a fallen humankind.

If I compare and contrast our views:
  • Aligned: we will all die what you're calling the first death. Death as we commonly know it.
  • Aligned: resurrection will only be for those in the fold. The wicked or ungodly will not be resurrected.
  • Slightly misaligned: the 'second death' of the ungodly is not so much a death as it is a being passed over for resurrection. i.e., You can't kill what is already dead, unless we're in some kind of zombie apocalypse. I get the sense that your view involves the dead somehow experiencing another actual death.
  • Misaligned: the physical status of the resurrected beings.
On this misalignment, how do you explain, among other things, the ultimate book and chapters of the bible, Revelation 21-22, and the new heaven and earth? The New Jerusalem comes down from heaven to earth... It is described in physical terms: the walls are made of jasper. The city itself of pure gold... This physical city is described as God's 'bride', which all speaks to a union of spiritual and physical. Not an elimination of the physical.

Are you telling me that the city is made of spiritual jasper and gold? Or that purely spiritual beings are living in a physical city for some reason?...

It all harkens back to Genesis 1 (recall our other conversation, and the original meeting and union of God (/spirit) and tehom (/the deep). The interesting thing here is that Revelation explicitly says there will no longer be a sea (verse 21:1) as there was in Genesis 1. But this doesn't mean physicality is eliminated. Rather it means that the original union is now complete. The two have indeed become one through marriage.

Revelation 21-22 is the culmination of Genesis 1. It is humankind at last fulfilling its role and potential, being made in the image of God and taking dominion over the earth.

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