Is death ... the end?

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Wootah
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Is death ... the end?

Post #1

Post by Wootah »

There seems to be some disagreement about what happens when we die.

Let's see what the Bible says:
https://www.biblehub.com/genesis/2-17.htm
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Did Adam and Eve die? Yes or No. So does God not know what death is or are you disagreeing with God?
https://biblehub.com/ephesians/2-1.htm
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Non Christians are regarded as dead but they all seem to be walking around (They had better get grafted in).

https://biblehub.com/john/11-26.htm
and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
John 11 deserves special mention. Jesus says to Martha and corrects her when she thinks Lazarus will rise on the last day. Not so Martha Jesus says, I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Jesus says we shall never die and admonishes Mary for thinking Lazarus will only rise on the last day. So either Jesus is a liar or we shall never die.

You know just to continue a theme, where Jesus dies on the cross and the curtain is torn, that is in effect no more separation between man and God. Symbolically when we pass through the curtain of death, we will find that we are more alive than ever, with God forever.

I really think many are preaching death still has a hold on Christians, still has a sting to it.

It's a serious subject. I strongly think people are making Jesus out to be a liar who disagree, I say that to highlight the implications and encourage civility in such a charged topic :).

Is death ... the end?

What is death and what does it mean according to the Bible?
Last edited by Wootah on Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #81

Post by William »

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #80]
Your "Humans as Spirits within forms" is your creation.
Perhaps it is, but you have given no reason as to why that is the case, and other Christians say it differently from you as well.

As I pointed out, the story of Lazarus can be interpreted that way as Jesus say's definite things about death.
Biblical Jesus can be seen to understand the nature of personality as a separate entity from the form the personality is created through.

You appear to believe that both body and personality die. Jesus says the body dies and the personality sleeps.

One rots away to eventually become earth-dust, while the other does not.

When Jesus spoke of "Lazarus" he is not speaking simply about the body Lazarus has temporary housed within.

[on the other hand] The disciples at the time appear to have had no idea of this concept Jesus understood as being a matter of fact.

It does appear that a personality can be 'placed in sleep' and 'awoken' any time anyone with that ability and access can do, and for that matter, there is no reason why the awakened personality cannot be put back to sleep after whatever task it was woken to perform, has been done.

Personalities themselves are not "spirits". Rather the Spirit is that which inhabits form in order to help the process of creating the personalities which become into this existence through that process of Heaven and Earth intermingling their frequencies.

This idea not something that I created, but that which The Father has shown to me, even that I am exceeding slow to comprehend, eventually - because I stay at it - I work things out.

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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #82

Post by myth-one.com »

Myth-one.com wrote:Your "Humans as Spirits within forms" is your creation.
William wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:08 pmPerhaps it is, but you have given no reason as to why that is the case,
Because it is supported nowhere in the scriptures.

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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #83

Post by William »

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #82]
Your "Humans as Spirits within forms" is your creation.
Perhaps it is, but you have given no reason as to why that is the case, and other Christians say it differently from you as well.

As I pointed out, the story of Lazarus can be interpreted that way as Jesus say's definite things about death.
Biblical Jesus can be seen to understand the nature of personality as a separate entity from the form the personality is created through.

You appear to believe that both body and personality die. Jesus says the body dies and the personality sleeps.

One rots away to eventually become earth-dust, while the other does not.

When Jesus spoke of "Lazarus" he is not speaking simply about the body Lazarus has temporary housed within.

[on the other hand] The disciples at the time appear to have had no idea of this concept Jesus understood as being a matter of fact.

It does appear that a personality can be 'placed in sleep' and 'awoken' any time anyone with that ability and access can do, and for that matter, there is no reason why the awakened personality cannot be put back to sleep after whatever task it was woken to perform, has been done.

Personalities themselves are not "spirits". Rather the Spirit is that which inhabits form in order to help the process of creating the personalities which become into this existence through that process of Heaven and Earth intermingling their frequencies.

This idea not something that I created, but that which The Father has shown to me, even that I am exceeding slow to comprehend, eventually - because I stay at it - I work things out.
it is supported nowhere in the scriptures.
So you claim. But even if that were the case;

It is supported in the words attributed to Jesus.

Therefore;

Rule of thumb re scriptural statements about biblical Jesus.

IF;
any such statement contradicts or is otherwise inconsistent with what biblical Jesus stated about death,
THEN;
regardless that it is 'in the bible', biblical Jesus' statements about death, take precedence over any other biblical statements about death.


Rule of Thumb = a broadly accurate guide or principle, based on practice rather than theory.

Take Precedence = to be more important (than something else)

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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #84

Post by onewithhim »

William wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:00 pm [Replying to onewithhim in post #74]
Considering the subject was spoken of by biblical Jesus, I find the reasoning to be more of an attempt to validate someone who is not Jesus but who claims to speak on behalf of Jesus, "because people will understand Paul better" too weak an argument.

Can you provide anything Jesus said which might validate his inability to tell people about what happens after death?
Jesus had plenty to say about what happens after death.
Sure.
When his friend Lazarus died, he told his disciples that Lazarus had "gone to sleep." His disciples said, well then he'll wake up if he's just asleep. Jesus then clearly said, "He has died."
Jesus was, of course, attempting to explain to a group of individuals, how death works for the individual.

The way you say it above, it is like he tries to tell them it is really just like going to sleep. You will wake up.
Some seem to have taken it literally, and couldn't join the dots, because they must have known that when people go to sleep, they wake up. When people die however, their bodies rot. Two different things entirely. Jesus would have known that.
(John 11:11) So, he compared death to being asleep.....the person is conscious of nothing.
That is also not entirely true, although for folk who experience sleep in this way, they would naturally think of it in those terms. Hench the difficulty Jesus had in explaining what happens to the person after their body has died.

But anyhow - what he did next was possibly prompted in part by this inability to explain death to those present who only believed that they rotted in the ground.

Meanwhile Jesus is concerned with the focus on the person rather than the body the personality was formed within.

Tears were shed. Compassion shown to those who were still alive and missed the Lazarus personality.

It was of course, the body that Jesus restored from its condition of initial decay. Lazarus re-entered the body, because he could now do so.

But folk who do see themselves in that light, do not appear to be able to accept that this is what occurred.

What happened to Lazarus, I wonder. Is there any information regarding that? Perhaps Jesus eventually fetched him and together they ascended into the clouds, with no one to witness the event? Or perhaps Lazarus lives on, even to this day, as primed and energetic as he was 20-odd centuries ago.

One thing we can take from this story, is that Jesus' resurrection was not the first resurrection to happen.

Lazarus seems to be an example of sorts as to answering the question "Is death ... the end?"


The 'sleep' bit is merely an attempt to explain something difficult to explain.

It - of itself - is explaining that as far as the individual will experience it, the transition is instantaneous just as waking is from sleeping...how much 'time out' occurred between events is not what the end is.

Therefore, all said an done, Death is not "The End."

Can you provide anything biblical Jesus said which shows that he thought death was the end?
"Lazarus re-entered the body" you said? How could he re-enter it when he was DEAD? Where did you get this re-enter idea? Surely if Lazarus had gone to heaven upon his death, somehow, it would not have been a kindness to make him come back down to earth from his glorious place in heaven. I don't understand what you mean by Lazarus re-entering his body. Please explain.

And I don't think Jesus found it difficult to explain death. It is simply like a person goes to sleep, in which he knows nothing of what is going on around him. He "sleeps" until the Resurrection, when Jesus makes him alive again. The "sleep" is merely to illustrate what kind of mindfulness the dead person has---he has none. He is not conscious at all, anywhere.

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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #85

Post by William »

[Replying to onewithhim in post #84]
Surely if Lazarus had gone to heaven upon his death, somehow, it would not have been a kindness to make him come back down to earth from his glorious place in heaven.
I am not sure where you base this assumption that it would have been cruel of Jesus to bring Lazarus back from being in Heaven?

The way I see it, Lazarus was a much loved family member and no doubt supported Jesus' mission 100%, so how is it important where anyone is as long as it is in relation to The Father, since there is no place one cannot be in heaven or Earth, where The Father is not present with one?
I don't understand what you mean by Lazarus re-entering his body. Please explain.
Elsewhere you had this to say;
I have to say, just because Jesus had an existence before coming to the earth, that doesn't necessarily mean that all humans had a pre-existence. Jesus remembered his existence before coming here, probably at his baptism, and we don't remember anything. People who claim to remember are deluding themselves, just like people who have out-of-body experiences and see a bright light, when they are on an operating table or such like. Most of us don't (those who are not deluded) have anything to remember...[LINK]
Unfortunately, unless you have tweaked your attitude on this, I have no way to explain to you because I and my kind, are labelled by you as "deluded".
I don't think Jesus found it difficult to explain death. It is simply like a person goes to sleep, in which he knows nothing of what is going on around him.
Do you have information which supports that when Jesus slept, he was dead?

From the Mystics point of view, sleep is just an opportunity to dream, and to dream is to be subjectively aware of alternative states of consciousness one is involved with.

I can understand that those who do not dream when they sleep, or do not remember dreaming when they sleep, may have difficulty in comprehending such, but being 'dead to the world' is an expression which only pertains to knowing nothing of what is going on in the world the body sleeps, which does not mean that the person is actually dead.
The "sleep" is merely to illustrate what kind of mindfulness the dead person has---he has none. He is not conscious at all, anywhere.
Perhaps this notion you believe in has to do with your not experiencing conscious awareness while your body sleeps?
Even so, why is it that you would call others who do, "deluded"?

Can you provide anything biblical Jesus said which shows that he thought death was the end?

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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #86

Post by onewithhim »

William wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:39 pm [Replying to onewithhim in post #84]
Surely if Lazarus had gone to heaven upon his death, somehow, it would not have been a kindness to make him come back down to earth from his glorious place in heaven.
I am not sure where you base this assumption that it would have been cruel of Jesus to bring Lazarus back from being in Heaven?

The way I see it, Lazarus was a much loved family member and no doubt supported Jesus' mission 100%, so how is it important where anyone is as long as it is in relation to The Father, since there is no place one cannot be in heaven or Earth, where The Father is not present with one?
I don't understand what you mean by Lazarus re-entering his body. Please explain.
Elsewhere you had this to say;
I have to say, just because Jesus had an existence before coming to the earth, that doesn't necessarily mean that all humans had a pre-existence. Jesus remembered his existence before coming here, probably at his baptism, and we don't remember anything. People who claim to remember are deluding themselves, just like people who have out-of-body experiences and see a bright light, when they are on an operating table or such like. Most of us don't (those who are not deluded) have anything to remember...[LINK]
Unfortunately, unless you have tweaked your attitude on this, I have no way to explain to you because I and my kind, are labelled by you as "deluded".
I don't think Jesus found it difficult to explain death. It is simply like a person goes to sleep, in which he knows nothing of what is going on around him.
Do you have information which supports that when Jesus slept, he was dead?

From the Mystics point of view, sleep is just an opportunity to dream, and to dream is to be subjectively aware of alternative states of consciousness one is involved with.

I can understand that those who do not dream when they sleep, or do not remember dreaming when they sleep, may have difficulty in comprehending such, but being 'dead to the world' is an expression which only pertains to knowing nothing of what is going on in the world the body sleeps, which does not mean that the person is actually dead.
The "sleep" is merely to illustrate what kind of mindfulness the dead person has---he has none. He is not conscious at all, anywhere.
Perhaps this notion you believe in has to do with your not experiencing conscious awareness while your body sleeps?
Even so, why is it that you would call others who do, "deluded"?

Can you provide anything biblical Jesus said which shows that he thought death was the end?
When Jesus slept he was not dead. You must not be understanding what I am submitting.

I have stated that, far from Jesus thinking that death was the end, he graciously told his followers that he will resurrect people in the "last day," and those who are brought back to life on Earth will go into Paradise on Earth and live here forever.

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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #87

Post by myth-one.com »

William wrote:Your "Humans as Spirits within forms" is your creation.
William wrote:Perhaps it is, but you have given no reason as to why that is the case, and other Christians say it differently from you as well. As I pointed out, the story of Lazarus can be interpreted . . .
The story of Lazarus needs no interpretation.

In fact, we are warned against making private interpretations:

II Peter 1:20 wrote:Knowing this first, that no prophesy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
William wrote:It is supported in the words attributed to Jesus.
Which words of Jesus?

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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #88

Post by William »

[Replying to onewithhim in post #86]
When Jesus slept he was not dead. You must not be understanding what I am submitting.
You said that the "sleep" is merely to illustrate what kind of mindfulness the dead person has---he has none. He is not conscious at all, anywhere.

I pointed out that from the Mystics point of view, sleep is just an opportunity to dream, and to dream is to be subjectively aware of alternative states of consciousness one is involved with.

So we differ on how we understand sleep, which is why I ask you to back up you view with anything Jesus said about sleep.

Did Jesus claim that a sleeping person has no mindfulness - has no awareness of self? Has none of the attributes which are associated with being alive?

Can you provide anything biblical Jesus said as reported in the Gospels which shows that he thought death was the end?

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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #89

Post by William »

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #87]
no prophesy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
The story of Lazarus is not prophesy. Grabbing at straws is not a great debating tactic...

It is supported in the words attributed to Jesus.

Therefore;

Rule of thumb re scriptural statements about biblical Jesus.

IF;
any such statement contradicts or is otherwise inconsistent with what biblical Jesus stated about death,
THEN;
regardless that it is 'in the bible', biblical Jesus' statements about death, take precedence over any other biblical statements about death.

Rule of Thumb = a broadly accurate guide or principle, based on practice rather than theory.

Take Precedence = to be more important (than something else)
Which words of Jesus?
In this case, the words attributed to him in regards to death and sleep being the same, and how the disciples did not understand what he meant by that, similar as to how you appear not to understand what he meant by that.

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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #90

Post by myth-one.com »

Myth-one.com wrote:Which words of Jesus?
William wrote:In this case, the words attributed to him in regards to death and sleep being the same, and how the disciples did not understand what he meant by that, similar as to how you appear not to understand what he meant by that.
You still do not understand it.

Death and sleep are not the same. One can be awakened from sleep -- Lazarus for example.

True death is everlasting. Once dead, always dead.

And the only true everlasting death is the "second" death.

Since all deceased humans will be resurrected from their first "death," they are not truly dead.

Lazarus had not suffered his second death as that occurs at the end of time after judgment.

Had Jesus done nothing, Lazarus will have been awakened at or after the Second Coming.

But Jesus did something, He awakened Lazarus early.

So Lazarus "died" another "first death" and continues his rest awaiting resurrection or awakening again.

===============================================

There are two groups -- believers and nonbelievers.

Believers will never experience true death.

They will be awakened from resting in their grave (RIP) to everlasting life.

Nonbelievers will be awakened to physical life again and face judgment. Following judgment, those whose names are not written in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire and quickly suffer their "second" and everlasting death.

That will be the end of them forever.

There is one, and only one true death -- that is the second death, because that death is everlasting.

The "first death" is not a death at all, because all will be resurrected from that death. Thus, they are often said to be asleep, slumbering, or resting in their graves.

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