Is death ... the end?

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Wootah
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Is death ... the end?

Post #1

Post by Wootah »

There seems to be some disagreement about what happens when we die.

Let's see what the Bible says:
https://www.biblehub.com/genesis/2-17.htm
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Did Adam and Eve die? Yes or No. So does God not know what death is or are you disagreeing with God?
https://biblehub.com/ephesians/2-1.htm
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Non Christians are regarded as dead but they all seem to be walking around (They had better get grafted in).

https://biblehub.com/john/11-26.htm
and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
John 11 deserves special mention. Jesus says to Martha and corrects her when she thinks Lazarus will rise on the last day. Not so Martha Jesus says, I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Jesus says we shall never die and admonishes Mary for thinking Lazarus will only rise on the last day. So either Jesus is a liar or we shall never die.

You know just to continue a theme, where Jesus dies on the cross and the curtain is torn, that is in effect no more separation between man and God. Symbolically when we pass through the curtain of death, we will find that we are more alive than ever, with God forever.

I really think many are preaching death still has a hold on Christians, still has a sting to it.

It's a serious subject. I strongly think people are making Jesus out to be a liar who disagree, I say that to highlight the implications and encourage civility in such a charged topic :).

Is death ... the end?

What is death and what does it mean according to the Bible?
Last edited by Wootah on Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #91

Post by William »

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #90]
Death and sleep are not the same. One can be awakened from sleep -- Lazarus for example.
Okay - so are you saying then that Jesus wasn't resurrected from death, but awakened from sleep?

[Is that like saying Jesus didn't die for your sins, but slept for them?]

Chuckles aside, If Jesus said death was like sleep, I'll go with that. Nothing to lose sleep over.

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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #92

Post by onewithhim »

William wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 5:00 am [Replying to myth-one.com in post #90]
Death and sleep are not the same. One can be awakened from sleep -- Lazarus for example.
Okay - so are you saying then that Jesus wasn't resurrected from death, but awakened from sleep?

[Is that like saying Jesus didn't die for your sins, but slept for them?]

Chuckles aside, If Jesus said death was like sleep, I'll go with that. Nothing to lose sleep over.
Yes, death is like sleep in that the person knows nothing. He, being dead, does not know what is going on around him. Someday Jesus will "awaken the person from sleep" by resurrecting that person, who has been dead. It just shows how easily Jesus can bring someone back to life.

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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #93

Post by William »

[Replying to onewithhim in post #92]
Yes, death is like sleep in that the person knows nothing.
I have said it before, but maybe not to you, Lady.

I am one who experiences something , rather than nothing, when my body sleeps.

I am not the only one who does so, and I have no doubts that Jesus too, was doing things while his body slept.

I cannot explain why this is so, that some folk do and others don't, but it shows us clearly that folk interpret things differently because of this type of thing. Not all folk are the same.

I accept that others have no choice but to argue that they experience nothing while their bodies sleep, and that it is like this for many, because for them, it is what is real.
I also acknowledge that such folk would be more inclined to think of themselves as the body they are, rather than the body they occupy.

I would say that this explains a lot, re the way humans developed opposing senses of selves and the war that this state has contributed to, throughout that development.
He, being dead, does not know what is going on around him.
Do you really thing someone with the talents attributed to him, was just a body which shut down and his self awareness blinked out every time he slept?

I find that image interesting, but see Christians developed special pleading for why it is okay for Jesus not to be Deluded or Satan, while everyone else in that camp is painted with that brush?
Someday Jesus will "awaken the person from sleep" by resurrecting that person, who has been dead. It just shows how easily Jesus can bring someone back to life.
Ultimately the idea is intriguingly ridiculous to me, since - in Jesus so easily doing this - it would effectively be like retrieving the personality-data of the individual from storage and booting it up in a new situation for that personality to experience.

A trillion years could have gone by and for that personality it would seem like one moment they were in once place and the next instant they were somewhere else...and not a hint of evidence to prove that they had dropped off to sleep and then woken up.

Like a cursed Princess after she is kissed by her prince, and the curse is broken.

Meanwhile, for those of us who did see it as moving seamlessly from one state to the other, sleep did not cast us into utter darkness, to await unconsciously for the day that Prince arrived.

And what did we do with that trillion years? We created a Legacy for the waking to enjoy.

How about that!

Sure. For now we are only talking a couple of thousand years gone by.
No one seems to be able to answer the question "what happened to Lazarus?".

Can we assume he is still around?

Maybe Jesus left the world to him?

Imagine what one man could do in 2000 years in a world where everyone else falls asleep around him, but not before they have breed more useful subjects into the mix...what a Legacy!

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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #94

Post by myth-one.com »

William wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 5:00 am [Replying to myth-one.com in post #90]
Death and sleep are not the same. One can be awakened from sleep -- Lazarus for example.
Okay - so are you saying then that Jesus wasn't resurrected from death, but awakened from sleep?

[Is that like saying Jesus didn't die for your sins, but slept for them?]

Chuckles aside, If Jesus said death was like sleep, I'll go with that. Nothing to lose sleep over.
The first death is like sleep in that we all (believers and nonbelievers) awaken from that "death."

The second death meets the true definition of death -- it is everlasting. There is no "awaking" from the second death.

<======== Here it the entire explanation again ========>


Death: the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an animal or plant. ------ Random House College Dictionary

<===============================>

The Bible discusses two "deaths", the first death and the second death. The first death is that of our physical bodies as they exist now:
Hebrews 9:27 wrote:And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
The second death is discussed in the book of Revelation:
[Revelation 21:8 wrote:But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
If true death is final, then our first death is not death at all as it does not meet the definition of death -- as it is not final. While all will "die" their first death, likewise, all will be resurrected or awakened from their first death:
[I Corinthians 15:22-23 wrote:For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Since everyone will live again after their "first death," the first death is not actually a death at all since it is nor permanent.

So Jesus did not lie when He stated that Lazarus' stinking body which had been lying in the grave for four days was only "sleeping".

When pressed, Jesus spoke plainly and stated that Lazarus was indeed dead. Plainly indicates that Jesus spoke in terms of how man understands death:
John 11:14 wrote:Then Jesus said unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
In neither case, when Jesus said Lazarus was asleep nor when He said Lazarus was dead, did He lie. Both statements are true! One was from God's point of view, and the other was from man's point of view. From God's perspective, there is one true death, the second death.

And yes, the second death is the end of life eternally for that being. There is no "spirit" or "soul" which lives on after the second death. There is no awaking again after the second death. They are dead and gone forever. There is no memory of them.

Therefore, all said an done, the Second Death is "The End."

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William
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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #95

Post by William »

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #94]
The first death is like sleep in that we all (believers and nonbelievers) awaken from that "death."

The second death meets the true definition of death -- it is everlasting. There is no "awaking" from the second death.
What I find ridiculous about that is the idea that the information has to be retrieved first and then deleted.

Why not just keep it asleep forever and never wake it up, if it is useless [non believing]?

"Hi. I am the Handsome Prince that awakened you with a kiss, but you went to sleep not believing I would eventually come and kiss you awake, so now I will kill you, because you are useless to me"

Image

Such can result in beliefs such as this individual has posted about the claim that the bible is "The Word of The Father" [God];

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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #96

Post by myth-one.com »

William wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:39 pm [Replying to myth-one.com in post #94]
The first death is like sleep in that we all (believers and nonbelievers) awaken from that "death."

The second death meets the true definition of death -- it is everlasting. There is no "awaking" from the second death.
What I find ridiculous about that is the idea that the information has to be retrieved first and then deleted.

Why not just keep it asleep forever and never wake it up, if it is useless [non believing]?
Great question. The nonbelievers are being raised for an excellent reason.

This is the part of Christianity I enjoy the MOST:


The following is what the Holy Scriptures states as to the fate of nonbelievers:
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:22-23)
All mankind are like the first man Adam in that all die. Likewise, every human (all) who ever died shall be resurrected or made alive again. Jesus was resurrected first:
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept. (I Corinthians 15:20)
The resurrection which we presently await is the one at which "they that are Christ's" will be resurrected. "They that are Christ's" refers to Christians. This resurrection for all Christians occurs at the Second Coming of Jesus to the earth, or "at his coming." The Second Coming is described in Revelation chapter nineteen:
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (Revelation 19:11-13)
Christians who are alive on the earth when Jesus returns will be born again as spirits and meet Him in the air:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (I Thessalonians 4:17)
At this point after the first resurrection, all Christians (dead or alive) have been born again as spiritual beings. They will then enjoy the millennium with Jesus:
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)
After the millennium, all dead nonbelievers are resurrected from their graves and face judgment:
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:11-15)
After the judgment of those resurrected in the second resurrection (nonbelievers), whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Be aware that absolutely none of those resurrected at the second resurrection had their names written in the book of life when resurrected! Every single human, dead or alive, with their names written in the book of life (believers) were born again into everlasting spiritual life at the first resurrection! So why are they checking the book again? Something obviously occurred since these nonbelievers were resurrected to cause the book of life to be modified. Otherwise, there would be no reason to check the book again for their names. What happened?

Nonbelievers resurrected to mortal life at the second resurrection will make their choice after understanding what the two possible choices are. If they were not given a choice on earth prior to their death, they will be given their choice after their resurrection as mortal humans in the second resurrection.

From the New International Version of The Holy Bible:
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit. (I Peter 4:5)
Their choice will be based on being preached the true gospel message for the first time. It will be preached at this time in the entire world, before the end of the age of man can occur:
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matthew 24:14)
Recall that all dead and living Christians were born again as spiritual bodied beings at the Second Coming. And there is no reason to believe that anyone will become a believer during the 1000 year millennium, as they have no preachers:
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? (Romans 10:14)
All whose names were written in the Book of Life as believers were born again at the Second Coming. So the Book of life has been cleared. All inheritors have received their rewards. After the 1000 year Millennium, the second resurrection for mankind occurs:
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. (Revelation 20:4)
Everyone raised in this second resurrection will face the great white throne judgment as all have sinned and are all headed for the second death.

The judgment will hold them responsible for their behavior as humans and some may see that God's plan for them was better than their way of life.

Satan is locked away during this time, the scriptures are unsealed, and these nonbelievers are explained the true good news of the scriptures.

Following this process, the Book of Life is checked again.

Why check the book if there were no names in it prior to the second resurrection, and everyone resurrected at the second resurrection was headed for the second death?

Would God raise these people again as physical bodies only to humiliate them during their judgment before casting them into the lake of fire? Why bother raising them from the dead only to inflict another painful physical death upon them? This flies in the face of "God is love." If the nonbelievers are being resurrected to be humiliated by judgment before being killed a second time, why not simply allow them to remain dead?

Of course, God is love, and He is raising the nonbelievers for a reason! One event prophesied to occur before the end of time is that the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world:
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matthew 24:14)
Billions or trillions of people have died never having the opportunity to accept Jesus as their Savior. These nonbelievers are raised again as mortals during the second resurrection and given that opportunity! The majority of all people who have ever lived have never, ever, heard the true message of the Holy Scriptures, even in the United States. Remember that the scriptures have been very successfully sealed until the end of time! At this time these people will hear the true message for the first time from angels, including Christians born again as spirits in the first resurrection, with Satan and all of his myths and lies totally defeated. Most people have never been given a choice based on Biblical truth! Their choice was based on myths and fear.

Those times will be over!
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matthew 24:14)

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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #97

Post by William »

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #96]
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept. (I Corinthians 15:20)
Then we have to consider that The Christ isn't Jesus, but the 'first fruits' which would include Lazarus - even as the very first human to be resurrected.

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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #98

Post by myth-one.com »

William wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 5:07 pm [Replying to myth-one.com in post #96]
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept. (I Corinthians 15:20)
Then we have to consider that The Christ isn't Jesus, but the 'first fruits' which would include Lazarus - even as the very first human to be resurrected.
Lazarus was not the first fruits of them that slept under the New Testament Covenant.

That was Jesus.

Several were awakened under the Old Testament Covenant, but Christ was the first under the New Testament Covenant three days after His crucifixion.

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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #99

Post by William »

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #98]

A very convoluted theology.

Re the OPQ, this would mean that the convoluted mythology of 'two deaths' only means that death is not the end for those who do not die.
A very roundabout manner in which to achieve this which has to involve the idea that every personality sleeps after their bodies die, so they cannot really be said to be 'dead' at all.


This 'second death' mythology appears to support [2];

[1] A "Person" is "Spirit" and temporarily exists as a human being until the body dies then that "Person" enters an afterlife and is judged by "God" and is condemned or saved. Those saved go to "heaven" and those condemned go to "Hell" - or in some variances on this, are "exterminated".

[2] A "Person" is a "Human being" and when the human being dies, that is the end of that person unless "God" judges them as "saved" in which case that person is resurrected and given a new body which will last forever more.

[3] A "Person" is an eternal Spirit in human form and when the body dies, that Spirit immediately moves to the next phase and either knowingly or unknowingly creates for their self, their next experience, based upon a combination of mainly what they believe, what their overall attitude is and what they did in the previous phase.

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Re: Is death ... the end

Post #100

Post by myth-one.com »

[Replying to William in post #99]

I think your posting in tongues again.

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