Is death ... the end?

[Wootah]

There seems to be some disagreement about what happens when we die.

Let's see what the Bible says:

https://www.biblehub.com/genesis/2-17.htm
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Did Adam and Eve die? Yes or No. So does God not know what death is or are you disagreeing with God?

https://biblehub.com/ephesians/2-1.htm
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins

Non Christians are regarded as dead but they all seem to be walking around (They had better get grafted in).

https://biblehub.com/john/11-26.htm
and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 11 deserves special mention. Jesus says to Martha and corrects her when she thinks Lazarus will rise on the last day. Not so Martha Jesus says, I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Jesus says we shall never die and admonishes Mary for thinking Lazarus will only rise on the last day. So either Jesus is a liar or we shall never die.

You know just to continue a theme, where Jesus dies on the cross and the curtain is torn, that is in effect no more separation between man and God. Symbolically when we pass through the curtain of death, we will find that we are more alive than ever, with God forever.

I really think many are preaching death still has a hold on Christians, still has a sting to it.

It's a serious subject. I strongly think people are making Jesus out to be a liar who disagree, I say that to highlight the implications and encourage civility in such a charged topic .

Is death ... the end?

What is death and what does it mean according to the Bible?

[William]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #45]

That's like saying why didn't he tell them about how they should comb their hair or brush their teeth?

So you are arguing that the subject "is Death The End?" is no more important than the subject of 'how hair should be combed" and "how teeth should be brushed"?

No, that's not what I am arguing.

What are yoù arguing

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #45]

That's like saying why didn't he tell them about how they should comb their hair or brush their teeth?

So you are arguing that the subject "is Death The End?" is no more important than the subject of 'how hair should be combed" and "how teeth should be brushed"?

No, that's not what I am arguing.

What are yoù arguing

That there are things that don't need to be delineated by Jesus at that time because those things weren't things that needed to be explained at that time. The apostle Paul explained, quite thoroughly, what the facts were about immortality, and Jesus knew he would cover all that at a time that it could be understood more readily.

[William]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #45]

That's like saying why didn't he tell them about how they should comb their hair or brush their teeth?

So you are arguing that the subject "is Death The End?" is no more important than the subject of 'how hair should be combed" and "how teeth should be brushed"?

No, that's not what I am arguing.

What are yoù arguing

That there are things that don't need to be delineated by Jesus at that time because those things weren't things that needed to be explained at that time. The apostle Paul explained, quite thoroughly, what the facts were about immortality, and Jesus knew he would cover all that at a time that it could be understood more readily.

Considering the subject was spoken of by biblical Jesus, I find the reasoning to be more of an attempt to validate someone who is not Jesus but who claims to speak on behalf of Jesus, "because people will understand Paul better" too weak an argument.

Can you provide anything Jesus said which might validate his inability to tell people about what happens after death?

[myth-one.com]

. . . there are things that don't need to be delineated by Jesus at that time because those things weren't things that needed to be explained at that time. The apostle Paul explained, quite thoroughly, what the facts were about immortality, and Jesus knew he would cover all that at a time that it could be understood more readily.

Onewithhim is correct.

Under the Old Testament Covenant, one had to remain sinless to gain everlasting life.

Under the New Testament Covenant, the only path to salvation is to believe in Jesus as your Savior.

The New Covenant became effective and the Old Testament vanished away when Jesus, the testator died:

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

================================================

Here's an example:

After Jesus died, Paul was asked the question, "What must I do to be saved":

. . . Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Paul's statement is true because it was made after the death of Jesus and thus under the New Testament Covenant.

That same statement would be a lie if Jesus said it, because the only path to salvation prior to His crucifixion was to never sin. So the correct answer to that question from Jesus would be to follow all the laws of God. That is, never sin, as the wages of sin is death.

And if Jesus sinned, He would not become an heir to everlasting life under the Old Testament Covenant.

And if Jesus had no inheritance of everlasting life under the Old Testament Covenant, He could not freely offer that inheritance to those who believe in Him as their Savior under the New Testament Covenant!

[Tcg]

Under the Old Testament Covenant, one had to remain sinless to gain everlasting life.

Are you aware of any passages from the O.T. itself that state this clearly? If so would you mind presenting them?


Tcg

[William]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #54]

Can you provide anything Jesus said which might validate his inability to tell people about what happens after death?

[Tcg]

That same statement would be a lie if Jesus said it, because the only path to salvation prior to His crucifixion was to never sin. So the correct answer to that question from Jesus would be to follow all the laws of God. That is, never sin, as the wages of sin is death.

This doesn't hold up in the case of the "rich young ruler" from Mt. 19, Mk.10, and Lk. 18. This man maintained all the laws of God and yet Jesus demanded more. Jesus required the man to give up his riches and give it to the poor. As far as I know, that is not part of the laws of God.


Tcg

[myth-one.com]

Under the Old Testament Covenant, one had to remain sinless to gain everlasting life.

Are you aware of any passages from the O.T. itself that state this clearly? If so would you mind presenting them?

Tcg

And the Lord God commanded the man saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God did not suggest or recommend that man not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He commanded it! Since man was not created with the knowledge of good and evil he could not sin until God gave him this first commandment. God gave them the command, and foretold the consequences of disobeying that command.

[William]

That same statement would be a lie if Jesus said it, because the only path to salvation prior to His crucifixion was to never sin. So the correct answer to that question from Jesus would be to follow all the laws of God. That is, never sin, as the wages of sin is death.

This doesn't hold up in the case of the "rich young ruler" from Mt. 19, Mk.10, and Lk. 18. This man maintained all the laws of God and yet Jesus demanded more. Jesus required the man to give up his riches and give it to the poor. As far as I know, that is not part of the laws of God.


Tcg

It is becoming apparent to me at least, that Jesus dealt with individuals - or groups of individuals so in what he said was valid for that certain individual/group -but not necessarily for all and sundry...

One example [Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5-10...]is where he speaks at length to those who feel they are persecuted - he tells them to rise above that and shine their 'light' anyway. He also tells them that their task is harder than most, because they are expected to behave even better than the priests of religion...so it is a somewhat dubious position to be in re the benefits of reward ... but one could argue that those who choose to endure such hardship want do so for the reward which they might get from that...if they make it through...and because that is the nature of their particular personality [persecution complex] which not all folk suffer from.

Internet Search;

What are the signs of a persecution complex?

The most common is delusions of persecution. It's when you're convinced that someone is mistreating, conspiring against, or planning to harm you or your loved one. Another type is grandiose delusions, where you have an unrealistically inflated sense of yourself or your achievements.

But it may be that it is not a case of one size fits all...

[Tcg]

Under the Old Testament Covenant, one had to remain sinless to gain everlasting life.

Are you aware of any passages from the O.T. itself that state this clearly? If so would you mind presenting them?

Tcg

And the Lord God commanded the man saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God did not suggest or recommend that man not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He commanded it! Since man was not created with the knowledge of good and evil he could not sin until God gave him this first commandment. God gave them the command, and foretold the consequences of disobeying that command.

I don't see any reference to eternal life here. Can you present any passages from the O.T. that do?


Tcg