Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

[Eloi]

Oddly enough, this is the belief of all of Christendom.

However, Jesus said just the opposite:

Rev. 1:17 When I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet.
And he laid his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, 18 and the living one, and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of the Grave.
... 2:8 “And to the angel of the congregation in Smyrʹna write: These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ who became dead and came to life again ..."

If Jesus says that he "became dead" and "came to life again", why do theologians and religious leaders of Christendom say that he never died, and they say even that he "resurrected himself"? Isn't that a clear denial of Jesus' statements in this regard?

[William]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #10]

Yep. As the OP points out there is inconsistency with the stories told.

Here we see a claim that God raised Jesus from death, when Jesus is said to have cliamed that he would raise his own body from death.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #10]

Yep. As the OP points out there is inconsistency with the stories told.

Here we see a claim that God raised Jesus from death, when Jesus is said to have cliamed that he would raise his own body from death.

Here we see that the scriptures state that God raised Jesus from the grave:

39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

So that claim is verified as fact.

So God raised Jesus from His tomb.
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Where are there any inconsistencies with the above verses pointed out and verified in the OP -- as you claim?

[William]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #12]

Here we see that the scriptures state that God raised Jesus from the grave:

So that claim is verified as fact.

So God raised Jesus from His tomb.

No. What we see is that folk claiming that biblical God raised biblical Jesus from the grave, contrary to what biblical Jesus stated - which was that he would raise himself from the grave.

So claiming one part of scripture-claim is 'verified as fact' while the other part of scripture-claim is conveniently overlooked in order that this can be achieved, is simply supporting the inconsistency through willful ignorance, promoting dishonesty in the process.

This is a common thing throughout Christianity, and in that - about the only thing which is consistent, and has been for over 20 centuries.

[myth-one.com]

If Jesus says that he "became dead" and "came to life again", why do theologians and religious leaders of Christendom say that he never died, and they say even that he "resurrected himself"? Isn't that a clear denial of Jesus' statements in this regard?

The answer to that question is that "theologians and religious leaders of Christendom" typically teach and preach what they have been taught by prior "theologians and religious leaders of Christendom" -- not necessarily what is in the scriptures.

If they study the scriptures at all, it is in an effort to justify their inherited beliefs, not to necessarily discover any truths.
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Here is a good example:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

This verse states that nonbelievers will perish and believers will have everlasting life.

I have never known a church which preaches that nonbelievers will perish and believers will have everlasting life.

[onewithhim]

Oddly enough, this is the belief of all of Christendom.

However, Jesus said just the opposite:

Rev. 1:17 When I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet.
And he laid his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, 18 and the living one, and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of the Grave.
... 2:8 “And to the angel of the congregation in Smyrʹna write: These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ who became dead and came to life again ..."

If Jesus says that he "became dead" and "came to life again", why do theologians and religious leaders of Christendom say that he never died, and they say even that he "resurrected himself"? Isn't that a clear denial of Jesus' statements in this regard?

Yes, those are very good points. It is clear that Jesus DID die, and a dead person cannot resurrect themselves. Very strange ideas that I have heard in Christendom. If Jesus didn't really die, then we are all still in our sins and Jesus never truly sacrificed his life. I'd rather stick to what the Bible really teaches.

[William]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #15]

I'd rather stick to what the Bible really teaches.

What the bible teaches is down to what the individual authors taught, and those beliefs are clearly not always aligned.

Rule of thumb re scriptural statements about biblical Jesus.

IF;
any such statement contradicts or is otherwise inconsistent with what biblical Jesus stated about himself,
THEN;
regardless that it is 'in the bible', biblical Jesus' statements about himself, take precedence over any other biblical statements about him.

any other biblical statements which might be contrary to what Jesus said, have to be placed to one side.

Rule of Thumb = a broadly accurate guide or principle, based on practice rather than theory.

Take Precedence = to be more important (than something else)


Since we have record of biblical Jesus making the claim that he would raise his own body from death - by using the analogy of the fallen temple;

Gospel John
Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #15]

I'd rather stick to what the Bible really teaches.

What the bible teaches is down to what the individual authors taught, and those beliefs are clearly not always aligned.

Rule of thumb re scriptural statements about biblical Jesus.

IF;
any such statement contradicts or is otherwise inconsistent with what biblical Jesus stated about himself,
THEN;
regardless that it is 'in the bible', biblical Jesus' statements about himself, take precedence over any other biblical statements about him.

any other biblical statements which might be contrary to what Jesus said, have to be placed to one side.

Rule of Thumb = a broadly accurate guide or principle, based on practice rather than theory.

Take Precedence = to be more important (than something else)


Since we have record of biblical Jesus making the claim that he would raise his own body from death - by using the analogy of the fallen temple;

Gospel John
Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body.

I don't understand how people can take that ONE VERSE to show that Jesus is God because he raised himself up, and ignore dozens of other verses that said that the Father (who is God; John 17:3) raised him up. If Jesus was truly DEAD, he would not have been able to literally bring himself back to life. Then what did he mean? He said that the Father is God---the ONLY true God---(John 17:3) and that he, Jesus, worships the Father as God (John 20:17). So "God" is the Father. God raised Jesus up (Acts 3:15, 4:10, 5:30, 10:40, 13:30; Romans 4:24, 8:11, 10:9; Galatians 1:1....and many more).

What he meant was that he was worthy to be raised up from the dead, as he remained faithful and obedient to the end. In that sense he raised himself. Any other understanding will, of course, chuck all the other scriptures in the Bible that concern the raising of Jesus.

[William]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #17]

I don't understand how people can take that ONE VERSE to show that Jesus is God because he raised himself up, and ignore dozens of other verses that said that the Father (who is God; John 17:3) raised him up.

That is the problem with inconsistency. It creates confusion and people fail to understand.

That one verse is significant. We know that Jesus always mentioned The Father in relation to all things, and so it should be expected that if he did say those words about the temple and was indeed aligning this with his own body, we should expect that he would have said it along the lines of;

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days my Father/The Father will raise it up."

So why is such an inconsistent verse included?

What he meant was that he was worthy to be raised up from the dead, as he remained faithful and obedient to the end. In that sense he raised himself. Any other understanding will, of course, chuck all the other scriptures in the Bible that concern the raising of Jesus.

If this is the case, then it can also be understood that everyone who does remain faithful and obedient to The Father, will also have similar powers of creativity and ability to use those powers in relation to The Christ, because The Christ is not an individual person...rather It is a Spirit Personality... a gathered force of Like-Minded persona...involved in building the works of The Fathers Will.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #17]

I don't understand how people can take that ONE VERSE to show that Jesus is God because he raised himself up, and ignore dozens of other verses that said that the Father (who is God; John 17:3) raised him up.

That is the problem with inconsistency. It creates confusion and people fail to understand.

That one verse is significant. We know that Jesus always mentioned The Father in relation to all things, and so it should be expected that if he did say those words about the temple and was indeed aligning this with his own body, we should expect that he would have said it along the lines of;

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days my Father/The Father will raise it up."

So why is such an inconsistent verse included?

What he meant was that he was worthy to be raised up from the dead, as he remained faithful and obedient to the end. In that sense he raised himself. Any other understanding will, of course, chuck all the other scriptures in the Bible that concern the raising of Jesus.

If this is the case, then it can also be understood that everyone who does remain faithful and obedient to The Father, will also have similar powers of creativity and ability to use those powers in relation to The Christ, because The Christ is not an individual person...rather It is a Spirit Personality... a gathered force of Like-Minded persona...involved in building the works of The Fathers Will.

Now, that is a stretch! How can you back that idea up scripturally?

[William]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #19]

What he meant was that he was worthy to be raised up from the dead, as he remained faithful and obedient to the end. In that sense he raised himself. Any other understanding will, of course, chuck all the other scriptures in the Bible that concern the raising of Jesus.

If this is the case, then it can also be understood that everyone who does remain faithful and obedient to The Father, will also have similar powers of creativity and ability to use those powers in relation to The Christ, because The Christ is not an individual person...rather It is a Spirit Personality... a gathered force of Like-Minded persona...involved in building the works of The Fathers Will.

How can we back that idea up scripturally?

The first step I would take is to examine anything biblical Jesus was said to have spoken, to see if it any of it fits the above description.

Some which spring to mind are;

As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do