Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

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Eloi
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Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

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Post by Eloi »

Oddly enough, this is the belief of all of Christendom.

However, Jesus said just the opposite:

Rev. 1:17 When I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet.
And he laid his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, 18 and the living one, and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of the Grave.
... 2:8 “And to the angel of the congregation in Smyrʹna write: These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ who became dead and came to life again ..."

If Jesus says that he "became dead" and "came to life again", why do theologians and religious leaders of Christendom say that he never died, and they say even that he "resurrected himself"? Isn't that a clear denial of Jesus' statements in this regard?

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

Post #2

Post by PinSeeker »

Yeah, again, what you say here seems to include me and any other Bible-believing Christian from your "Christendom." The Bible indicates that all three Persons of the Triune Jehovah were involved in Jesus’s resurrection. Galatians 1:1 says that the Father raised Jesus from the dead. First Peter 3:18 says that the Spirit raised Jesus from the dead (see also Romans 1:4, and note that Romans 8:11 clearly says that God will resurrect believers “through His Spirit”). And in John 2:19 Jesus predicts that He will raise Himself from the dead (see also John 10:18). So, who resurrected Jesus? Well, God did, and meaning God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

Post #3

Post by 1213 »

Eloi wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:18 am Oddly enough, this is the belief of all of Christendom.
...
Odd, I have not seen any Christian group that says Jesus didn’t die. Can you show more specifically one group that thinks so?

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

Post #4

Post by Eloi »

Only a person who is ALIVE can resurrect another person who is dead. Many religious leaders of Christendom say Jesus resurrected himself ... They are saying he was alive after dying ... a living-dead 🤪.

Now the question is: if one Jesus was alive and resurrected another one who was dead, how many Jesuses are in that composed god of the trinitarians?

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

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Post by William »

[Replying to Eloi in post #4]
Only a person who is ALIVE can resurrect another person who is dead. Many religious leaders of Christendom say Jesus resurrected himself ...
The script [John] which comes to mind is where Jesus talks of the Temple being razed and Jesus giving an analogy that if the temple was destroyed, in three days he will raise it up.

As the story goes, it became apparent to his disciples that Jesus must have been referring to his beaten and crucified body before he was risen from the dead, as they remembered what he had previously said about the temple at the time.

How can Jesus resurrect himself from the dead, if he were actually dead? The confusion appears to be in the recognizing the body as being 'who Jesus was' when that wasn't actually the case, as surely as the temple was not 'God', but considered the 'house' or 'container' of 'The Spirit of God'.

The analogies simply point to deeper truth which the individual has to then work through in order to understand.

The analogies are not themselves the truth. Jesus was never the form of flesh he was temporarily housed within.

Thus, Jesus was never actually dead. It just appeared that way, to those who identified him as the flesh that housed him - he actually being Spirit was not fully understood.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

Post #6

Post by myth-one.com »

William wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:33 pm Jesus was never the form of flesh he was temporarily housed within.

Thus, Jesus was never actually dead. It just appeared that way, to those who identified him as the flesh that housed him - he actually being Spirit was not fully understood.
The Word was made flesh for a reason. That reason was because spiritual beings cannot die.
Hebrews 2:9 wrote:But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, . . .
If Jesus was actually Spirit as you claim, then He could not fulfill His mission of suffering death.

And if Jesus cannot suffer death, then mankind has no salvation.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

Post #7

Post by William »

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #6]
And if Jesus cannot suffer death, then mankind has no salvation.
The whole point of the flesh is for the spirit to experience whatever that flesh allows it to experience, so the idea that "mankind has no salvation" is moot on that point.

The spirit [in this case the word made flesh] cannot itself die, but can experience a human body dying.

The word made flesh does not change what the word is.

How can Jesus resurrect himself from the dead, if he were actually dead? The confusion appears to be in the recognizing the body as being 'who Jesus was' when that wasn't actually the case, as surely as the temple was not 'God', but considered the 'house' or 'container' of 'The Spirit of God'.

The analogies simply point to deeper truth which the individual has to then work through in order to understand.

The analogies are not themselves the truth. Jesus was never the form of flesh he was temporarily housed within.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

Post #8

Post by myth-one.com »

William wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:11 pm [Replying to myth-one.com in post #6]

The spirit [in this case the word made flesh] cannot itself die, but can experience a human body dying.

The word made flesh does not change what the word is.
That's correct. The Word made flesh was a man. But the Word was still a separate spiritual being.

And being a spiritual being, the Word still could not experience death.
=====================================================

Also, the Word was not made flesh as Jesus only so that Jesus could experience death.

Jesus had to be born a man, live a sinless life, then experience death.

Why? Because only mankind could qualify as heirs to everlasting life under the original covenant between God and man.

The Word could not do that, as the Word was on the God side of that equation, and already had everlasting life.

The MAN Jesus became the only human to become an heir to everlasting life under the Old Testament Covenant.

The wages of sin is death, but He never sinned, therefore He does not have to experience the second death.

He then offers His inheritance of everlasting life as a gift to those humans who believe in Him as their Savior.

Thus, salvation became a gift of God through Jesus Christ.

The New Covenant was created to reflect this change in requirements.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

Post #9

Post by William »

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #8]

How did Jesus resurrect his body if he were not alive to do so?

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

Post #10

Post by myth-one.com »

William wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:53 pm [Replying to myth-one.com in post #8]

How did Jesus resurrect his body if he were not alive to do so?
The man Jesus had no power to resurrect Himself.

So He was resurrected by God the Father:
Acts 10 wrote:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

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