Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

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Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

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Post by Eloi »

Oddly enough, this is the belief of all of Christendom.

However, Jesus said just the opposite:

Rev. 1:17 When I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet.
And he laid his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, 18 and the living one, and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of the Grave.
... 2:8 “And to the angel of the congregation in Smyrʹna write: These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ who became dead and came to life again ..."

If Jesus says that he "became dead" and "came to life again", why do theologians and religious leaders of Christendom say that he never died, and they say even that he "resurrected himself"? Isn't that a clear denial of Jesus' statements in this regard?

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

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Post by William »

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #57]
Question; a spirit with no personality will be what, exactly?
A spirit. Personality itself is like a costume an actor puts on in order to play a role.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

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Post by onewithhim »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:47 am
onewithhim wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:29 pm
They are the same ones that are mentioned in Revelation 14 who are standing with the Lamb, Jesus Christ, on heavenly Mount Zion, so who else would they be than the co-rulers with Christ? They are spoken of at Rev.5:10 as "a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth." You can also see them mentioned again in chapter 20, particularly verses 4 and 6. Why do you doubt that Christ will have associate rulers?
Now see, here is where the NWT (the only Bible that JW's will use) becomes deceptive.

Notice you said "...and they are to rule as kings over the earth".

Keyword: Over

Depending on how you view "over" in this context, it can be taken to mean that they (Christ and his co-rulers) will be in heaven and will reign OVER the earth (as heaven is above earth).

However, when you look at virtually any English translation/version of the verse (Rev 5:10), the scripture reads "...and they will reign on the earth".

Keywords: On

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Revelation%205:10

And you will have to strain your eyes to find the 2 or 3 translations which reads "over the earth" out of the dozens which reads "on".

I ever looked up the Greek lexicon

https://biblehub.com/revelation/5-10.htm#lexicon

Upon: meaning "on".

You already acknowledged that it will be a earthly reign anyway, but this is a typical JW "slight of hand trick" with the scripture where a word can be equivocated and if you don't have careful eyes you can get caught in the trap.

The scripture says nothing about the great multitude residing in heaven.
No, you are being deceptive in your pronouncement that the New World Translation is the only Bible JWs will use. We used the King James and the American Standard Version for almost 100 years before the NWT came out, and even today we will use any Bible. I have dozens in my library.

The Greek word translated "on" in many versions is a word that, scholars say, can be translated as either "on" or "over." I found three versions that use the word "over."

1) The Holy Trinity Version of the Catholic Bible, 1951, the Catholic Press, Inc. "...and hast made them for our God a kingdom and priests, and they shall reign over the earth."

2) Holy Bible/Sacred Heart Edition, 1956, Good Counsel Publishing Co., Inc. "...and hast made them for our God a kingdom and priests, and they shall reign over the earth."

3) Holy Family Edition of the Catholic Bible, 1950, the Catholic Press, Inc. "...and hast made them for our God a kingdom and priests, and they shall reign over the earth."


I nor any JW is being deceptive about anything. All it takes is a bit more depth in researching. Obviously the translators of the versions I quoted above have some kind of knowledge that the word for "on" can be rendered as "over" as well. No sleight of hand there. When we take into consideration many other verses of Scripture, the word "over" is appropriate. Jesus now dwells in "unapproachable light" which no man has seen nor can see. (I Timothy 6:16) He is in heaven with the Father and all the faithful angels, and the spirit realm is obviously a wonderous place to be. Why would Jesus and his associate rulers leave the spirit realm in heaven and come back down to the earth to rule? That doesn't add up. They can rule from heaven just as Jehovah has been minding the earth for thousands of years of mankind's history, guiding his people for their benefit.




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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

Post #63

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #60]

Neither Paul nor Jesus indicated that a person is present after death. When Paul said, "absent from the body is present with the Lord," he didn't say how long an interval there would be between death and presence with the Lord, and there was one---a long one. It would SEEM that there was no interval, to the dead person who would be resurrected, because he would have no perception of time passing. It would seem as if it was immediate, to him, because he wouldn't know how much time had passed. Just like a sound sleeper would not be cognizant of 8 hours passing when he falls asleep.

Paul spoke of many of the holy ones "sleeping" in death. Why would he say this if they were already with Jesus? (I Corinthians 11:30; I Thessalonians 4:13)

Jesus likened death to a sleep, as well. He said that his friend Lazarus was asleep, and then said plainly that Lazarus had DIED. (John 11:11) Why would Jesus call Lazarus back from heaven if that is where Lazarus had gone? No, Lazarus was really DEAD and conscious of nothing. (Ecclesiastes 9:5)


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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

Post #64

Post by William »

Jesus now dwells in "unapproachable light" which no man has seen nor can see. (I Timothy 6:16) He is in heaven with the Father and all the faithful angels, and the spirit realm is obviously a wonderous place to be. Why would Jesus and his associate rulers leave the spirit realm in heaven and come back down to the earth to rule? That doesn't add up. They can rule from heaven just as Jehovah has been minding the earth for thousands of years of mankind's history, guiding his people for their benefit.
I furthermore interpret "Heaven" to be a domain in which programmers exist [as immaterial spirits] and program the game to suit the agenda of the programmers.

"God" is The Mind Behind Creation and can be 'seen' as a multitude of individuate Spirits all integrated into support of the same agenda.

"Ruling from heaven" thus becomes, "Programing the game to suit the programmers agenda."

"Earth" is the stage in which the game is set and to where spirits enter in order to play the game.

"Unapproachable light" refers to information which is directly unattainable to spirits within human form, within the game-play.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

Post #65

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

onewithhim wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:39 pm
Neither Paul nor Jesus indicated that a person is present after death. When Paul said, "absent from the body is present with the Lord," he didn't say how long an interval there would be between death and presence with the Lord, and there was one---a long one.
The interval between death and presence with the Lord is meaningless if you have a group of people (Jehovah's Witnesses) stating that there is no such Biblical concept of being absent from the body.

If there is no such concept of being absent from the body, then Paul wouldn't be saying "to be absent from the body", which I am not sure how you would even respond to that, considering there is no such concept according to the theology of your organization.
onewithhim wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:39 pm It would SEEM that there was no interval, to the dead person who would be resurrected, because he would have no perception of time passing. It would seem as if it was immediate, to him, because he wouldn't know how much time had passed. Just like a sound sleeper would not be cognizant of 8 hours passing when he falls asleep.
According to the rich man and Lazarus story (Luke 16:19-31), the tormented soul of the rich man was very cognizant of what was going on.

But once again, I have a JW telling me one thing (there is no life after death), and I have Jesus telling me another thing (life after death).

Never fails.
onewithhim wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:39 pm Paul spoke of many of the holy ones "sleeping" in death. Why would he say this if they were already with Jesus? (I Corinthians 11:30; I Thessalonians 4:13)
Paul is obviously talking about the body, which can be said to be in a "sleeping" state until the resurrection, which has nothing to do with the state of the spirit.

Again, was the rich man sleep, or was he awake?
onewithhim wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:39 pm Jesus likened death to a sleep, as well. He said that his friend Lazarus was asleep, and then said plainly that Lazarus had DIED. (John 11:11) Why would Jesus call Lazarus back from heaven if that is where Lazarus had gone? No, Lazarus was really DEAD and conscious of nothing. (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
.
That was a special case scenario, obviously. The aim was for Lazarus to die and be resurrected without having him experience the normal protocol before his final earthly death...and this was accomplished.
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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

Post #66

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

onewithhim wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:19 pm No, you are being deceptive in your pronouncement that the New World Translation is the only Bible JWs will use. We used the King James and the American Standard Version for almost 100 years before the NWT came out, and even today we will use any Bible. I have dozens in my library.
Sure, you may use other Bibles for whatever points of reference you like...but lets not pretend that..

1. The NWT isn't the supreme, superior, official Bible of the JW's.

2. When JW's come to your door, they will have a NWT handy.

3. JW's aren't handing out King James and American Standard Version's of the Bible to the public, but rather, the NWT.
onewithhim wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:19 pm The Greek word translated "on" in many versions is a word that, scholars say, can be translated as either "on" or "over." I found three versions that use the word "over."

1) The Holy Trinity Version of the Catholic Bible, 1951, the Catholic Press, Inc. "...and hast made them for our God a kingdom and priests, and they shall reign over the earth."

2) Holy Bible/Sacred Heart Edition, 1956, Good Counsel Publishing Co., Inc. "...and hast made them for our God a kingdom and priests, and they shall reign over the earth."

3) Holy Family Edition of the Catholic Bible, 1950, the Catholic Press, Inc. "...and hast made them for our God a kingdom and priests, and they shall reign over the earth."
I provided over 50 English translations, and almost none said "over", and I also provided the Greek lexicon and "over" is not listed as a interchangeable word for "upon".

But "on" is.
onewithhim wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:19 pm I nor any JW is being deceptive about anything. All it takes is a bit more depth in researching. Obviously the translators of the versions I quoted above have some kind of knowledge that the word for "on" can be rendered as "over" as well. No sleight of hand there. When we take into consideration many other verses of Scripture, the word "over" is appropriate. Jesus now dwells in "unapproachable light" which no man has seen nor can see. (I Timothy 6:16) He is in heaven with the Father and all the faithful angels, and the spirit realm is obviously a wonderous place to be. Why would Jesus and his associate rulers leave the spirit realm in heaven and come back down to the earth to rule?
Because this is Jesus' earth to rule just as it is his heaven to rule.
onewithhim wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:19 pm They can rule from heaven just as Jehovah has been minding the earth for thousands of years of mankind's history, guiding his people for their benefit.
This is all about how you view Rev 5:10. We disagree as to how it should be interpreted. So we may have to just agree/disagree.
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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

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Post by We_Are_VENOM »

William wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:51 am [Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #57]
Question; a spirit with no personality will be what, exactly?
A spirit. Personality itself is like a costume an actor puts on in order to play a role.
A lot of equivocating going on here.

1. Spirit
2. Mind
3. Personality

All the same.
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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

Post #68

Post by Tcg »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:33 am
1. Spirit
2. Mind
3. Personality

All the same.
Let's see if that claim adds up:

Spirit - noun
1. the nonphysical part of a person which is the seat of emotions and character; the soul.

Mind - noun
1. the element of a person that enables them to be aware of the world and their experiences, to think, and to feel; the faculty of consciousness and thought.

Personality - noun
1. the combination of characteristics or qualities that form an individual's distinctive character.

Quite clearly, it doesn't.


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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

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Post by We_Are_VENOM »

Tcg wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:47 am

Let's see if that claim adds up:

Spirit - noun
1. the nonphysical part of a person which is the seat of emotions and character; the soul.
It adds up.

Keyword: Character

And what is a character?

Do you know a synonym for character?

PERSONALITY

https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/character

So we can see that person's spirit IS their character, and character IS their personality, just like I said.

And if a person has a righteous character/spirit/personality, the person can be said to have a righteous mind.

So your gotcha moment has failed. That is what happens when you are dead set on proving a theist wrong.

Newflash: it is ok for a theist to be correct on some things. It isnt the end of the world.
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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

Post #70

Post by William »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:52 am
Tcg wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:47 am

Let's see if that claim adds up:

Spirit - noun
1. the nonphysical part of a person which is the seat of emotions and character; the soul.
It adds up.

Keyword: Character
Incorrect. The Keyword is "Spirit". The nonphysical aspect of a person [remember your argument 'made in gods image and how god is not physical'] - the place where the personality [emotions/character] is situated, is the soul [seat] - which is an aspect of spirit, serving to store the information of the individual personality which forms through the process.
And what is a character?
An actor in a storyline.
Do you know a synonym for character?

PERSONALITY
Exactly. There is no personality of note in a human new-born. But there is Spirit. The character forms as the personality develops.

So we can see that the character aligns with the personality.

And if a character has a righteous personality , the Spirit can be said to have achieved a good thing, and the soul of that good thing [stored information of the individual personality] will be saved.

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