Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

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Eloi
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Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

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Post by Eloi »

Paul said:

1 Cor. 15:50 But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

Jesus is in God's kingdom right now. That region is described in this passage of the Bible:

Heb. 12:18 For you have not approached something that can be felt and that has been set aflame with fire, and a dark cloud and thick darkness and a storm, 19 and the blast of a trumpet and the voice speaking words, which on hearing, the people begged that nothing further should be spoken to them. 20 For they could not bear the command: “If even a beast touches the mountain, it must be stoned.” 21 Also, the display was so terrifying that Moses said: “I am afraid and trembling.” 22 But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels 23 in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect, 24 and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood, which speaks in a better way than Abel’s blood.

It is a region where only spirit beings can live, not physical beings of flesh and bones. It is obvious, since beings of flesh and bones are directly connected with physical needs that can only be satisfied in the physical environment where we were placed when we were created. There are at least five passages in the Scriptures which teach us that Jesus is in a spirit body right now in heaven:

1 Tim. 3:16 Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in the world, was received up in glory.’

Heb. 9:14 how much more will the blood of the Christ, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works so that we may render sacred service to the living God?

1 Cor. 15:44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth and made of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one.

2 Cor. 5:16 So from now on we know no man from a fleshly viewpoint. Even if we once knew Christ according to the flesh, we certainly no longer know him in that way.

1 Pet. 3:18 For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit ...

Why do theologians and religious leaders of Christendom continue to falsely teach their apprentices that Jesus lives in heaven with a body of flesh and bones? ... maybe a two meters tall body? Has his body gases inside? Does it need liquid like humans on earth to maintain his internal physical composition?

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #61

Post by historia »

Eloi wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:58 pm
historia wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:44 pm
But that's not what they believe. They believe Jesus' frail, mortal body was transformed into an extraordinary, supernatural body that now has new properties that allow it to do things an ordinary body cannot
But not closing some holes in the hands?
I'm not familiar with any Christian doctrine that says Jesus cannot do that.

It does seem clear to me, though, that the gospel authors wanted to show that there is continuity between Christ's pre-Resurrection and post-Resurrection body. And so they relate that the resurrected body still bears the marks of his crucifixion.
Eloi wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:58 pm
If Thomas had seen Jesus with his old body (and he knew him very well), it would not have even been necessary to show him any holes in the hands.
That's not exactly how John relates the story.

In John 20:24-29, before Thomas has seen anything -- since he was not with the other disciples when they first saw Jesus -- he says he will only believe that Jesus has been resurrected if he can see and touch his wounds.

The implication here seems to be that Thomas thinks the other disciplines have been deceived in some way -- today we might call it a hallucination. And so Thomas insists he will only believe Jesus has been resurrected if he can see and touch the actual body.

There is no suggestion in the text that Thomas did not recognize Jesus when he later sees him.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #62

Post by historia »

onewithhim wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 8:47 pm
No, Paul was talking about a spirit body.
Paul does not use the word "spirit body" but rather "spiritual body."

As I've noted several times above, the Greek word for "spiritual" here is pneumatikos. It simply cannot mean 'made out of spirit', and so cannot mean 'spirit body', as you would have it.
onewithhim wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 8:47 pm
He is comparing physical with spirit bodies . . . Physical = "natural." Spirit = "spiritual."
No, the word Paul uses here for "natural" is psychikos. It does not mean "physical."

This is clear from how Paul contrasts these same terms earlier in the same letter:
1 Cor. 2:13 wrote:
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
Paul is talking here about how people respond to the "proclamations" and "wisdom" that he previously imparted to the Corinthians. He says that some of them cannot accept this wisdom because they are a "natural" person, while the "spiritual" person understands what Paul taught.

Obviously, it is absurd to say that Paul thinks some of the people in Corinth are 'physical' while others are spirits.

The adjectives "natural" and "spiritual" here simply don't refer to what a person (or a body) is made of.
onewithhim wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 8:47 pm
Flesh and bones cannot go to heaven, just as flesh and blood cannot.
As has already been pointed out earlier in the thread, Paul does not say that flesh and blood cannot go to heaven.
onewithhim wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 8:47 pm
Why do you complicate a very simple teaching?
It's not me who is complicating this for you, it's Paul.

Notice, you're literally changing what Paul wrote -- substituting your own words like "spirit body" and "heaven" -- in order to make this passage conform to your view.

I'm simply undoing those changes -- and pointing out where you are making false assumptions about what various words mean -- in order to show that Paul is not saying what you want him to say.
Last edited by historia on Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #63

Post by Eloi »

historia wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:52 pm (...) It does seem clear to me, though, that the gospel authors wanted to show that there is continuity between Christ's pre-Resurrection and post-Resurrection body. And so they relate that the resurrected body still bears the marks of his crucifixion. (...)
A different thing is clear to me: Jesus appeared as he had appeared in ancient times: with a temporary body.

His human body had been offered, and now the "continuity between Christ's pre-Resurrection and post-Resurrection body" reached the body that he had before he was born, because the human was one inferior to the other.

John 17:5 So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.

1 Tim. 6:14 (...) until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 This [manifestation] the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times, [he] the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, 16 the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see. To him be honor and might everlasting. Amen.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #64

Post by historia »

onewithhim wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:20 am
myth-one.com wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 9:04 pm
Luke 24:39 wrote:
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Was Jesus lying?
He was simply trying to assure them that it was he and not an apparition.
Or, more precisely, that he is assuring them that he is not a "spirit."

But that's precisely the problem, you're arguing Jesus is a spirit:
onewithhim wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 8:47 pm
a powerful spirit person. Jesus Christ
Kinda awkward, that.
onewithhim wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 8:52 pm
If his body had been flesh and bones he would not have been able to get through the door which had been locked! (John 20:19,26)
See post #52.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #65

Post by Eloi »

John had written these clear words of Jesus:

John 17:24 Father, I want those whom you have given me to be with me where I am, in order that they may look upon my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world.

... and again:

1 John 3:2 Beloved ones, we are now children of God, but it has not yet been made manifest what we will be. We do know that when he is made manifest we will be like him, because we will see him just as he is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as that one is pure.

Jesus' disciples knew that the figure of Jesus in heaven was not like what today would be a simple astronaut in outer space.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #66

Post by historia »

Eloi wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:05 pm
historia wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:52 pm
It does seem clear to me, though, that the gospel authors wanted to show that there is continuity between Christ's pre-Resurrection and post-Resurrection body. And so they relate that the resurrected body still bears the marks of his crucifixion.
A different thing is clear to me: Jesus appeared as he had appeared in ancient times: with a temporary body.
Sure, you're reading the text through the lens of Watchtower theology. We all read the Bible according to our respective traditions.
Eloi wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:05 pm
His human body had been offered, and now the "continuity between Christ's pre-Resurrection and post-Resurrection body" reached the body that he had before he was born, because the human was one inferior to the other.
I'm sorry, I don't understand what "the 'continuity between Christ's pre-Resurrection and post-Resurrection body' reached the body that he had before he was born" means.

I was under the impression that Jehovah's Witnesses believed that Jesus' body was dissolved after the crucifixion and that he was re-created as a spirit. That seems altogether foreign to what Luke and John are saying in their gospels, as they are quite keen to show that Jesus' resurrected body bears the marks of his crucifixion, and so is directly continuous with his pre-resurrection body.
Eloi wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:52 pm
Jesus' disciples knew that the figure of Jesus in heaven was not like what today would be a simple astronaut in outer space.
That's also not what Christians today think. See post #27.
Last edited by historia on Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #67

Post by Eloi »

Exactly, WT-style: with the Bible as the only guide.
Eloi wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:40 am Paul said:

1 Cor. 15:50 But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

Jesus is in God's kingdom right now. That region is described in this passage of the Bible:

Heb. 12:18 For you have not approached something that can be felt and that has been set aflame with fire, and a dark cloud and thick darkness and a storm, 19 and the blast of a trumpet and the voice speaking words, which on hearing, the people begged that nothing further should be spoken to them. 20 For they could not bear the command: “If even a beast touches the mountain, it must be stoned.” 21 Also, the display was so terrifying that Moses said: “I am afraid and trembling.” 22 But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels 23 in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect, 24 and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood, which speaks in a better way than Abel’s blood.

It is a region where only spirit beings can live, not physical beings of flesh and bones. It is obvious, since beings of flesh and bones are directly connected with physical needs that can only be satisfied in the physical environment where we were placed when we were created. There are at least five passages in the Scriptures which teach us that Jesus is in a spirit body right now in heaven:

1 Tim. 3:16 Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in the world, was received up in glory.’

Heb. 9:14 how much more will the blood of the Christ, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works so that we may render sacred service to the living God?

1 Cor. 15:44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth and made of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one.

2 Cor. 5:16 So from now on we know no man from a fleshly viewpoint. Even if we once knew Christ according to the flesh, we certainly no longer know him in that way.

1 Pet. 3:18 For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit ...

Why do theologians and religious leaders of Christendom continue to falsely teach their apprentices that Jesus lives in heaven with a body of flesh and bones? ... maybe a two meters tall body? Has his body gases inside? Does it need liquid like humans on earth to maintain his internal physical composition?

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #68

Post by onewithhim »

historia wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:52 pm
Eloi wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:58 pm
historia wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:44 pm
But that's not what they believe. They believe Jesus' frail, mortal body was transformed into an extraordinary, supernatural body that now has new properties that allow it to do things an ordinary body cannot
But not closing some holes in the hands?
I'm not familiar with any Christian doctrine that says Jesus cannot do that.

It does seem clear to me, though, that the gospel authors wanted to show that there is continuity between Christ's pre-Resurrection and post-Resurrection body. And so they relate that the resurrected body still bears the marks of his crucifixion.
Eloi wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:58 pm
If Thomas had seen Jesus with his old body (and he knew him very well), it would not have even been necessary to show him any holes in the hands.
That's not exactly how John relates the story.

In John 20:24-29, before Thomas has seen anything -- since he was not with the other disciples when they first saw Jesus -- he says he will only believe that Jesus has been resurrected if he can see and touch his wounds.

The implication here seems to be that Thomas thinks the other disciplines have been deceived in some way -- today we might call it a hallucination. And so Thomas insists he will only believe Jesus has been resurrected if he can see and touch the actual body.

There is no suggestion in the text that Thomas did not recognize Jesus when he later sees him.
You said it yourself. The possibility of anyone thinking that Jesus was a hallucination was of concern. Therefore Jesus made the statement that he still had the holes made at his crucifixion. The main issue was---is this really Jesus? Not whether or not he had a body of flesh.

.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #69

Post by onewithhim »

historia wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:02 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 8:47 pm
No, Paul was talking about a spirit body.
Paul does not use the word "spirit body" but rather "spiritual body."

As I've noted several times above, the Greek word for "spiritual" here is pneumatikos. It simply cannot mean 'made out of spirit', and so cannot mean 'spirit body', as you would have it.
onewithhim wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 8:47 pm
He is comparing physical with spirit bodies . . . Physical = "natural." Spirit = "spiritual."
No, the word Paul uses here for "natural" is psychikos. It does not mean "physical."

This is clear from how Paul contrasts these same terms earlier in the same letter:
1 Cor. 2:13 wrote:
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
Paul is talking here about how people respond to the "proclamations" and "wisdom" that he previously imparted to the Corinthians. He says that some of them cannot accept this wisdom because they are a "natural" person, while the "spiritual" person understands what Paul taught.

Obviously, it is absurd to say that Paul thinks some of the people in Corinth are 'physical' while others are spirits.

The adjectives "natural" and "spiritual" here simply don't refer to what a person (or a body) is made of.
onewithhim wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 8:47 pm
Flesh and bones cannot go to heaven, just as flesh and blood cannot.
As has already been pointed out earlier in the thread, Paul does not say that flesh and blood cannot go to heaven.
onewithhim wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 8:47 pm
Why do you complicate a very simple teaching?
It's not me who is complicating this for you, it's Paul.

Notice, you're literally changing what Paul wrote -- substituting your own words like "spirit body" and "heaven" -- in order to make this passage conform to your view.

I'm simply undoing those changes -- and pointing out where you are making false assumptions about what various words mean -- in order to show that Paul is not saying what you want him to say.
I Corinthians 15:45-50 shows what Paul meant by "spiritual" and "earthly" or "natural." It's clear that he's talking about earthly bodies and spirit bodies.

.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #70

Post by onewithhim »

historia wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:45 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:20 am
myth-one.com wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 9:04 pm
Luke 24:39 wrote:
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Was Jesus lying?
He was simply trying to assure them that it was he and not an apparition.
Or, more precisely, that he is assuring them that he is not a "spirit."

But that's precisely the problem, you're arguing Jesus is a spirit:
onewithhim wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 8:47 pm
a powerful spirit person. Jesus Christ
Kinda awkward, that.
onewithhim wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 8:52 pm
If his body had been flesh and bones he would not have been able to get through the door which had been locked! (John 20:19,26)
See post #52.
I did and it doesn't provide any rebuttal to my comments.

.

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