Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

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Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #1

Post by Eloi »

Paul said:

1 Cor. 15:50 But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

Jesus is in God's kingdom right now. That region is described in this passage of the Bible:

Heb. 12:18 For you have not approached something that can be felt and that has been set aflame with fire, and a dark cloud and thick darkness and a storm, 19 and the blast of a trumpet and the voice speaking words, which on hearing, the people begged that nothing further should be spoken to them. 20 For they could not bear the command: “If even a beast touches the mountain, it must be stoned.” 21 Also, the display was so terrifying that Moses said: “I am afraid and trembling.” 22 But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels 23 in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect, 24 and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood, which speaks in a better way than Abel’s blood.

It is a region where only spirit beings can live, not physical beings of flesh and bones. It is obvious, since beings of flesh and bones are directly connected with physical needs that can only be satisfied in the physical environment where we were placed when we were created. There are at least five passages in the Scriptures which teach us that Jesus is in a spirit body right now in heaven:

1 Tim. 3:16 Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in the world, was received up in glory.’

Heb. 9:14 how much more will the blood of the Christ, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works so that we may render sacred service to the living God?

1 Cor. 15:44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth and made of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one.

2 Cor. 5:16 So from now on we know no man from a fleshly viewpoint. Even if we once knew Christ according to the flesh, we certainly no longer know him in that way.

1 Pet. 3:18 For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit ...

Why do theologians and religious leaders of Christendom continue to falsely teach their apprentices that Jesus lives in heaven with a body of flesh and bones? ... maybe a two meters tall body? Has his body gases inside? Does it need liquid like humans on earth to maintain his internal physical composition?

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #71

Post by myth-one.com »

[Replying to onewithhim in post #70]

There are natural bodies and spiritual bodies.

Regardless of how the resurrected Jesus got into the room; once in the room, He made the following statement confirming that He was a flesh and blood natural bodied human:
Jesus Christ wrote:Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (Luke 24:39)
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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #72

Post by onewithhim »

myth-one.com wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:23 am [Replying to onewithhim in post #70]

There are natural bodies and spiritual bodies.

Regardless of how the resurrected Jesus got into the room; once in the room, He made the following statement confirming that He was a flesh and blood natural bodied human:
Jesus Christ wrote:Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (Luke 24:39)
As I said, he was just assuring them that he wasn't a figment of their imaginations or an apparition. He wasn't trying to convince anyone about what kind of body he then had. That wasn't high on his list at the moment. You can't get around the fact that the door was locked and he suddenly appeared in their midst.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #73

Post by Eloi »

historia wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 6:03 pm
Eloi wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:40 am
Why do theologians and religious leaders . . . teach . . . that Jesus lives in heaven with a body of flesh and bones?
Because this has been the teaching of Christians from very early on.

As noted above, Christians believe that Christ's body has been transformed into a glorious body that possess new attributes that allow it to live in heaven, in a way that the natural human body on its own could not.
I am sorry I have to make a correction on how you should express your belief:

YOU believe that only the body of Jesus died and at that very moment an invisible Jesus came out of it, still alive. YOU believe that this invisible Jesus got into his some way enhanced former body at the third day ... YOU believe Jesus never died, and never changed into anything; he only got out and came back into a body of flesh and bones, which in reality he did not need any more, because according to you, he was still alive and having some dialogs with other spirits without any "glorified" body of flesh and bones, although in almost three days nobody ever knew... not even his followers.

This is your belief; although what the Bible says is that Jesus died and on the third day he was resurrected in spirit, appearing in bodies of flesh so that his disciples would realize that he was alive AGAIN.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #74

Post by historia »

Eloi wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 2:40 pm
I am sorry I have to make a correction on how you should express your belief
Probably best to let me explain what I believe.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #75

Post by historia »

onewithhim wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:36 am
As I said, he was just assuring them that he wasn't a figment of their imaginations or an apparition.
That would make sense if Jesus had said that a 'dream' or a 'vision' or an 'image' does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have. But that's not what he said.

Rather, he says that "a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have” (Luke 24:39). Luke is clearly arguing here that the risen Christ is not a spirit.
onewithhim wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:02 pm
You said it yourself. The possibility of anyone thinking that Jesus was a hallucination was of concern. Therefore Jesus made the statement that he still had the holes made at his crucifixion.
But if Jesus still has the holes made at his crucifixion, then he still has the body that was crucified.

That is the orthodox Christian position, not the JW one.
onewithhim wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:12 pm
historia wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:45 pm
See post #52.
I did and it doesn't provide any rebuttal to my comments.
Let me explain it to you then, since you seem to have not grasped the point.

You've repeatedly argued that, if the risen Christ has a body of flesh and bones, then he could not have entered into a room through a locked door. But that argument is predicated on the assumption that Jesus' resurrected body is composed of ordinary (natural) flesh and bones.

Christians, on the other hand, believe that Jesus' body has been transformed into a glorified body that is animated by the Spirit, which now gives the resurrected body new properties that allow it to do what an ordinary human body could not, like enter into a locked room.

You are, in other words, attacking a straw man argument.
onewithhim wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:08 pm
I Corinthians 15:45-50 shows what Paul meant by "spiritual" and "earthly" or "natural." It's clear that he's talking about earthly bodies and spirit bodies.
Assertions are not arguments. You haven't given us any reasons to think this interpretation is correct.

I've given two reasons above why the adjectives "natural" (psychikos) and "spiritual" (pneumatikos) simply don't describe what these two bodies are made of:

(a) Greek adjectives that end with the suffix -ikos do not refer to what something is composed of. If you want to describe what something is composed of, you use an adjective with the suffix -inos.

(b) Paul's usage of these same adjectives earlier in the same letter (1 Cor 2:15-15) show that they aren't describing what a noun (in that case a person) is made of.

There's more I can say here, but if you are unwilling or unable to make an actual argument as to why we should interpret Paul's argument the way you do, then there's nothing for us to debate.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #76

Post by onewithhim »

historia wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:22 pm
onewithhim wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:36 am
As I said, he was just assuring them that he wasn't a figment of their imaginations or an apparition.
That would make sense if Jesus had said that a 'dream' or a 'vision' or an 'image' does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have. But that's not what he said.

Rather, he says that "a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have” (Luke 24:39). Luke is clearly arguing here that the risen Christ is not a spirit.
onewithhim wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:02 pm
You said it yourself. The possibility of anyone thinking that Jesus was a hallucination was of concern. Therefore Jesus made the statement that he still had the holes made at his crucifixion.
But if Jesus still has the holes made at his crucifixion, then he still has the body that was crucified.

That is the orthodox Christian position, not the JW one.
onewithhim wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:12 pm
historia wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:45 pm
See post #52.
I did and it doesn't provide any rebuttal to my comments.
Let me explain it to you then, since you seem to have not grasped the point.

You've repeatedly argued that, if the risen Christ has a body of flesh and bones, then he could not have entered into a room through a locked door. But that argument is predicated on the assumption that Jesus' resurrected body is composed of ordinary (natural) flesh and bones.

Christians, on the other hand, believe that Jesus' body has been transformed into a glorified body that is animated by the Spirit, which now gives the resurrected body new properties that allow it to do what an ordinary human body could not, like enter into a locked room.

You are, in other words, attacking a straw man argument.
onewithhim wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:08 pm
I Corinthians 15:45-50 shows what Paul meant by "spiritual" and "earthly" or "natural." It's clear that he's talking about earthly bodies and spirit bodies.
Assertions are not arguments. You haven't given us any reasons to think this interpretation is correct.

I've given two reasons above why the adjectives "natural" (psychikos) and "spiritual" (pneumatikos) simply don't describe what these two bodies are made of:

(a) Greek adjectives that end with the suffix -ikos do not refer to what something is composed of. If you want to describe what something is composed of, you use an adjective with the suffix -inos.

(b) Paul's usage of these same adjectives earlier in the same letter (1 Cor 2:15-15) show that they aren't describing what a noun (in that case a person) is made of.

There's more I can say here, but if you are unwilling or unable to make an actual argument as to why we should interpret Paul's argument the way you do, then there's nothing for us to debate.
We're dancing around Robinson's barn about something that shouldn't be a focal point. The Scriptures are clear: Jesus was "put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit."(I Peter 3:18) VERY clear. Paul said as much in his letter to the Corinthians: "So it is written: 'The first man Adam became a living person.' The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." (I Corinthians 15:45.)

So Peter and Paul say Jesus was raised in the spirit, yet John seems to say he wasn't a spirit. How about 2 against 1? Majority wins? Just a little humor. I still say that Jesus was deflecting the idea that they were hallucinating. And he didn't say he "still" had the nail marks. It was my addition. It says, "Put your finger here and see my hands, and take your hand and stick it into my side, and stop doubting..." (John 20:27) A picture paints a thousand words. Jesus just wanted Thomas to believe that he was risen. It was obvious that he had a spirit body because he came through a locked door. Your idea of a "glorified" physical body that can go through doors is a bit much. That's the first time I've heard that.

Peace.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #77

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

Eloi wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:40 am Paul said:

1 Cor. 15:50 But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

Jesus is in God's kingdom right now. That region is described in this passage of the Bible:

Heb. 12:18 For you have not approached something that can be felt and that has been set aflame with fire, and a dark cloud and thick darkness and a storm, 19 and the blast of a trumpet and the voice speaking words, which on hearing, the people begged that nothing further should be spoken to them. 20 For they could not bear the command: “If even a beast touches the mountain, it must be stoned.” 21 Also, the display was so terrifying that Moses said: “I am afraid and trembling.” 22 But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels 23 in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect, 24 and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood, which speaks in a better way than Abel’s blood.

It is a region where only spirit beings can live, not physical beings of flesh and bones. It is obvious, since beings of flesh and bones are directly connected with physical needs that can only be satisfied in the physical environment where we were placed when we were created. There are at least five passages in the Scriptures which teach us that Jesus is in a spirit body right now in heaven:

1 Tim. 3:16 Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in the world, was received up in glory.’

Heb. 9:14 how much more will the blood of the Christ, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works so that we may render sacred service to the living God?

1 Cor. 15:44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth and made of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one.

2 Cor. 5:16 So from now on we know no man from a fleshly viewpoint. Even if we once knew Christ according to the flesh, we certainly no longer know him in that way.

1 Pet. 3:18 For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit ...

Why do theologians and religious leaders of Christendom continue to falsely teach their apprentices that Jesus lives in heaven with a body of flesh and bones? ... maybe a two meters tall body? Has his body gases inside? Does it need liquid like humans on earth to maintain his internal physical composition?
To follow the two shepherds, Peter and Paul, of Zechariah 11:7, are to be a member of the "flock doomed for slaughter" (Zechariah 11:7). The "kingdom" of Daniel 2:45 & Zechariah 11:16 & Ezekiel 37:28-28 & Matthew 13, is one that takes place on earth, and according to Matthew 24:33 remain "right at the door". As stated in Matthew 26:64 & Psalms 110, "the LORD says to my Lord; 'sit at My right hand', until I make thine enemies a footstool for thy feet". The "kingdom" of God, on this earth, has not been set up, and the 8th head of the beast still reigns (Revelation 17). The only thing "at hand" is the power and Spirit of the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 10:7-8) which is demonstrated by the raising of the dead and the healing of the sick. The "fat shepherds" who do not feed nor heal the sheep "I will destroy" (Ezekiel 34:16). The "fat sheep", the worthless leaders, remain to this day. Apparently, the destruction will start with the "elders"/leaders (Ezekiel 9:6).

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #78

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

onewithhim wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:41 pm
historia wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:22 pm
onewithhim wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:36 am
As I said, he was just assuring them that he wasn't a figment of their imaginations or an apparition.
That would make sense if Jesus had said that a 'dream' or a 'vision' or an 'image' does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have. But that's not what he said.

Rather, he says that "a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have” (Luke 24:39). Luke is clearly arguing here that the risen Christ is not a spirit.
onewithhim wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:02 pm
You said it yourself. The possibility of anyone thinking that Jesus was a hallucination was of concern. Therefore Jesus made the statement that he still had the holes made at his crucifixion.
But if Jesus still has the holes made at his crucifixion, then he still has the body that was crucified.

That is the orthodox Christian position, not the JW one.
onewithhim wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:12 pm
historia wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:45 pm
See post #52.
I did and it doesn't provide any rebuttal to my comments.
Let me explain it to you then, since you seem to have not grasped the point.

You've repeatedly argued that, if the risen Christ has a body of flesh and bones, then he could not have entered into a room through a locked door. But that argument is predicated on the assumption that Jesus' resurrected body is composed of ordinary (natural) flesh and bones.

Christians, on the other hand, believe that Jesus' body has been transformed into a glorified body that is animated by the Spirit, which now gives the resurrected body new properties that allow it to do what an ordinary human body could not, like enter into a locked room.

You are, in other words, attacking a straw man argument.
onewithhim wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:08 pm
I Corinthians 15:45-50 shows what Paul meant by "spiritual" and "earthly" or "natural." It's clear that he's talking about earthly bodies and spirit bodies.
Assertions are not arguments. You haven't given us any reasons to think this interpretation is correct.

I've given two reasons above why the adjectives "natural" (psychikos) and "spiritual" (pneumatikos) simply don't describe what these two bodies are made of:

(a) Greek adjectives that end with the suffix -ikos do not refer to what something is composed of. If you want to describe what something is composed of, you use an adjective with the suffix -inos.

(b) Paul's usage of these same adjectives earlier in the same letter (1 Cor 2:15-15) show that they aren't describing what a noun (in that case a person) is made of.

There's more I can say here, but if you are unwilling or unable to make an actual argument as to why we should interpret Paul's argument the way you do, then there's nothing for us to debate.
We're dancing around Robinson's barn about something that shouldn't be a focal point. The Scriptures are clear: Jesus was "put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit."(I Peter 3:18) VERY clear. Paul said as much in his letter to the Corinthians: "So it is written: 'The first man Adam became a living person.' The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." (I Corinthians 15:45.)

So Peter and Paul say Jesus was raised in the spirit, yet John seems to say he wasn't a spirit. How about 2 against 1? Majority wins? Just a little humor. I still say that Jesus was deflecting the idea that they were hallucinating. And he didn't say he "still" had the nail marks. It was my addition. It says, "Put your finger here and see my hands, and take your hand and stick it into my side, and stop doubting..." (John 20:27) A picture paints a thousand words. Jesus just wanted Thomas to believe that he was risen. It was obvious that he had a spirit body because he came through a locked door. Your idea of a "glorified" physical body that can go through doors is a bit much. That's the first time I've heard that.

Peace.
You have at least two problems here. First, you only have one witness statement for John about Thomas, and the second is that your two witnesses/shepherds, Peter and Paul are the two shepherds taken to "pasture the flock (Gentile church) doomed for slaughter". Not a good source if one is trying to escape destruction during the "day of the LORD" (Joel 2:31-32).

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #79

Post by onewithhim »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:27 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:41 pm
historia wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:22 pm
onewithhim wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:36 am
As I said, he was just assuring them that he wasn't a figment of their imaginations or an apparition.
That would make sense if Jesus had said that a 'dream' or a 'vision' or an 'image' does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have. But that's not what he said.

Rather, he says that "a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have” (Luke 24:39). Luke is clearly arguing here that the risen Christ is not a spirit.
onewithhim wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:02 pm
You said it yourself. The possibility of anyone thinking that Jesus was a hallucination was of concern. Therefore Jesus made the statement that he still had the holes made at his crucifixion.
But if Jesus still has the holes made at his crucifixion, then he still has the body that was crucified.

That is the orthodox Christian position, not the JW one.
onewithhim wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:12 pm
historia wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:45 pm
See post #52.
I did and it doesn't provide any rebuttal to my comments.
Let me explain it to you then, since you seem to have not grasped the point.

You've repeatedly argued that, if the risen Christ has a body of flesh and bones, then he could not have entered into a room through a locked door. But that argument is predicated on the assumption that Jesus' resurrected body is composed of ordinary (natural) flesh and bones.

Christians, on the other hand, believe that Jesus' body has been transformed into a glorified body that is animated by the Spirit, which now gives the resurrected body new properties that allow it to do what an ordinary human body could not, like enter into a locked room.

You are, in other words, attacking a straw man argument.
onewithhim wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:08 pm
I Corinthians 15:45-50 shows what Paul meant by "spiritual" and "earthly" or "natural." It's clear that he's talking about earthly bodies and spirit bodies.
Assertions are not arguments. You haven't given us any reasons to think this interpretation is correct.

I've given two reasons above why the adjectives "natural" (psychikos) and "spiritual" (pneumatikos) simply don't describe what these two bodies are made of:

(a) Greek adjectives that end with the suffix -ikos do not refer to what something is composed of. If you want to describe what something is composed of, you use an adjective with the suffix -inos.

(b) Paul's usage of these same adjectives earlier in the same letter (1 Cor 2:15-15) show that they aren't describing what a noun (in that case a person) is made of.

There's more I can say here, but if you are unwilling or unable to make an actual argument as to why we should interpret Paul's argument the way you do, then there's nothing for us to debate.
We're dancing around Robinson's barn about something that shouldn't be a focal point. The Scriptures are clear: Jesus was "put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit."(I Peter 3:18) VERY clear. Paul said as much in his letter to the Corinthians: "So it is written: 'The first man Adam became a living person.' The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." (I Corinthians 15:45.)

So Peter and Paul say Jesus was raised in the spirit, yet John seems to say he wasn't a spirit. How about 2 against 1? Majority wins? Just a little humor. I still say that Jesus was deflecting the idea that they were hallucinating. And he didn't say he "still" had the nail marks. It was my addition. It says, "Put your finger here and see my hands, and take your hand and stick it into my side, and stop doubting..." (John 20:27) A picture paints a thousand words. Jesus just wanted Thomas to believe that he was risen. It was obvious that he had a spirit body because he came through a locked door. Your idea of a "glorified" physical body that can go through doors is a bit much. That's the first time I've heard that.

Peace.
You have at least two problems here. First, you only have one witness statement for John about Thomas, and the second is that your two witnesses/shepherds, Peter and Paul are the two shepherds taken to "pasture the flock (Gentile church) doomed for slaughter". Not a good source if one is trying to escape destruction during the "day of the LORD" (Joel 2:31-32).
You haven't been reading carefully. To say that I have a problem with John's witness statement because there is only one witness that wrote down that Jesus intimated that he was not a spirit......that backs up my belief that he said no such thing. So I have no problem. There need to be two or more witnesses. Good point, actually.

YOU have a problem with your belief that Peter and Paul are "doomed to slaughter." They were close disciples to Jesus. Do you deny all of the New Testament?

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #80

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

onewithhim wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:41 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:27 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:41 pm
historia wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:22 pm
onewithhim wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:36 am
As I said, he was just assuring them that he wasn't a figment of their imaginations or an apparition.
That would make sense if Jesus had said that a 'dream' or a 'vision' or an 'image' does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have. But that's not what he said.

Rather, he says that "a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have” (Luke 24:39). Luke is clearly arguing here that the risen Christ is not a spirit.
onewithhim wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:02 pm
You said it yourself. The possibility of anyone thinking that Jesus was a hallucination was of concern. Therefore Jesus made the statement that he still had the holes made at his crucifixion.
But if Jesus still has the holes made at his crucifixion, then he still has the body that was crucified.

That is the orthodox Christian position, not the JW one.
onewithhim wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:12 pm
historia wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:45 pm
See post #52.
I did and it doesn't provide any rebuttal to my comments.
Let me explain it to you then, since you seem to have not grasped the point.

You've repeatedly argued that, if the risen Christ has a body of flesh and bones, then he could not have entered into a room through a locked door. But that argument is predicated on the assumption that Jesus' resurrected body is composed of ordinary (natural) flesh and bones.



Christians, on the other hand, believe that Jesus' body has been transformed into a glorified body that is animated by the Spirit, which now gives the resurrected body new properties that allow it to do what an ordinary human body could not, like enter into a locked room.

You are, in other words, attacking a straw man argument.
onewithhim wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:08 pm
I Corinthians 15:45-50 shows what Paul meant by "spiritual" and "earthly" or "natural." It's clear that he's talking about earthly bodies and spirit bodies.
Assertions are not arguments. You haven't given us any reasons to think this interpretation is correct.

I've given two reasons above why the adjectives "natural" (psychikos) and "spiritual" (pneumatikos) simply don't describe what these two bodies are made of:

(a) Greek adjectives that end with the suffix -ikos do not refer to what something is composed of. If you want to describe what something is composed of, you use an adjective with the suffix -inos.

(b) Paul's usage of these same adjectives earlier in the same letter (1 Cor 2:15-15) show that they aren't describing what a noun (in that case a person) is made of.

There's more I can say here, but if you are unwilling or unable to make an actual argument as to why we should interpret Paul's argument the way you do, then there's nothing for us to debate.
We're dancing around Robinson's barn about something that shouldn't be a focal point. The Scriptures are clear: Jesus was "put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit."(I Peter 3:18) VERY clear. Paul said as much in his letter to the Corinthians: "So it is written: 'The first man Adam became a living person.' The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." (I Corinthians 15:45.)

So Peter and Paul say Jesus was raised in the spirit, yet John seems to say he wasn't a spirit. How about 2 against 1? Majority wins? Just a little humor. I still say that Jesus was deflecting the idea that they were hallucinating. And he didn't say he "still" had the nail marks. It was my addition. It says, "Put your finger here and see my hands, and take your hand and stick it into my side, and stop doubting..." (John 20:27) A picture paints a thousand words. Jesus just wanted Thomas to believe that he was risen. It was obvious that he had a spirit body because he came through a locked door. Your idea of a "glorified" physical body that can go through doors is a bit much. That's the first time I've heard that.

Peace.
You have at least two problems here. First, you only have one witness statement for John about Thomas, and the second is that your two witnesses/shepherds, Peter and Paul are the two shepherds taken to "pasture the flock (Gentile church) doomed for slaughter". Not a good source if one is trying to escape destruction during the "day of the LORD" (Joel 2:31-32).
You haven't been reading carefully. To say that I have a problem with John's witness statement because there is only one witness that wrote down that Jesus intimated that he was not a spirit......that backs up my belief that he said no such thing. So I have no problem. There need to be two or more witnesses. Good point, actually.

YOU have a problem with your belief that Peter and Paul are "doomed to slaughter." They were close disciples to Jesus. Do you deny all of the New Testament?
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Actually, I was referring to the "flock doomed for slaughter", which would be the Gentile church (Zechariah 11:7), which was bought for the equivalence of 30 pieces of silver (Hosea 3) & (Zechariah 11:13). On the other hand, all three shepherds of Zechariah 11, including Judas Iscariot (Zechariah 11:12-13), were destined for "annihilation" (Zechariah 11:8), in the same "month"/generation. As for Paul, he didn't witness any of Yeshua's message. His singularly confirmed confrontation by himself, was with an angel of light, which Paul, defines later as Satan, who also showered Paul with gifts, such as a thorn in the side. According to Zechariah 11, it was "the LORD my God" who set this all up, including rising up of Peter, the "worthless shepherd", who would not feed, tend nor care for the sheep. (Zechariah 11:16).
As for the generally used canon of the NT, established in 367 AD, on the feast of the pagan god Astarte/Easter, it is not holy, compiled by a guy with a close association with the beast with two horns like a lamb, Constantine, and according to Matthew 13:25, is mixed with the message of the enemy/devil. Paul is best described in Matthew 7:13-23, as one of the "false prophets" who would call on my name, and to miracles in my name, and I would later say, "I never knew you who practice lawlessness".

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