Christendom's inconsistent beliefs #7: Was Jesus "god" when he was human?

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Eloi
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Christendom's inconsistent beliefs #7: Was Jesus "god" when he was human?

Post #1

Post by Eloi »

Many religious leaders in Christendom teach their followers that Jesus was "God" and at the same time "human." They use that premise to justify his human "weaknesses", such as the fact that he felt hungry and thirsty like any other human being ...

Is it reasonable to believe that within Jesus there were two different persons, and Jesus knew nothing about it? Doesn't that remind you of a mental illness that has to do with multiple personalities? Was Jesus sick, or is that belief totally false?

PD: What the Bible teaches:

Phil. 2:5 Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human. 8 More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

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Re: Christendom's inconsistent beliefs #7: Was Jesus "god" when he was human?

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Post by Mattathias »

Jesus of Nazareth is only one person. There are a few passages of scripture commonly put forward as examples of Jesus being identified as theos. Those passages must be accounted for, and are in various ways, in all theologies.
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Re: Christendom's inconsistent beliefs #7: Was Jesus "god" when he was human?

Post #3

Post by Eloi »

Mattathias wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:41 pm Jesus of Nazareth is only one person. There are a few passages of scripture commonly put forward as examples of Jesus being identified as theos. Those passages must be accounted for, and are in various ways, in all theologies.
I agree. For example, this one:

John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.

However, the Bible never describes Jesus with the title "god" when he was in his human nature.

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Re: Christendom's inconsistent beliefs #7: Was Jesus "god" when he was human?

Post #4

Post by Hawkins »

God revealed Himself through His chosen prophets. You can't possibly know better than those prophets who encoutered God directly to deliver His message. Similarly, Jesus revealed Himself to His chosen disciples. You can't possibly know better than those apostles.
Thomas called Jesus Lord and God, while Jesus accepted those names.

That said. What affects one's salvation is described in the Apostles' Creed. Whether you think Jesus is God, which remains controversial, may not affect one's salvation as long as the minimum requirement is fulfilled as mentioned in the faith statements of Apostles' Creed. If you know that Jesus is God with His Trinity, it means you are drawn closer to Him.

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Re: Christendom's inconsistent beliefs #7: Was Jesus "god" when he was human?

Post #5

Post by Eloi »

[Replying to Hawkins in post #4]
I don't see any "trinity" in the Bible ... but that is not the topic here. The topic here is: was Jesus "god" when he was in his human nature?

If anyone think he was, that would imply that they believe in some kind of man-god of which the pagans already speak in their own "theologies". Is Jesus as "god-man" as the pagan demigods, or is it just a later syncretization done by the apostates of later centuries to attract pagans?

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Re: Christendom's inconsistent beliefs #7: Was Jesus "god" when he was human?

Post #6

Post by Mattathias »

Eloi wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:49 pm I agree. For example, this one:

John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.

However, the Bible never describes Jesus with the title "god" when he was in his human nature.
I notice that the translation you quoted from (NWT?) uses the title “only-begotten god”to describe Jesus. I presume that you are using the title “god” in a secondary sense.

I don’t object to that but John 1:18 is a verse having textual variants and I’m more accustomed to reading and understanding “only begotten Son” in the passage. Do you have an issue with that textual variant?
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Re: Christendom's inconsistent beliefs #7: Was Jesus "god" when he was human?

Post #7

Post by Eloi »

Mattathias wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:46 pmI notice that the translation you quoted from (NWT?) uses the title “only-begotten god”to describe Jesus. I presume that you are using the title “god” in a secondary sense.

I don’t object to that but John 1:18 is a verse having textual variants and I’m more accustomed to reading and understanding “only begotten Son” in the passage. Do you have an issue with that textual variant?
You are "pressuming" right, but you are wrong in one thing: it is not ME, but the Scripture saying that Jesus is "god" in a secundary sense. You can see it by yourself in the quoted text. Again:

John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.

Did you notice which one is the principal sense? There is another example:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. (...)

Jesus himself talked about GOD in a very difference sense more than once. Notice these examples:

John 17:3 This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

Luke 18:19 Jesus said to him: “Why do you call me good? Nobody is good except one, God."

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Re: Christendom's inconsistent beliefs #7: Was Jesus "god" when he was human?

Post #8

Post by Mattathias »

Hawkins wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:55 pm God revealed Himself through His chosen prophets. You can't possibly know better than those prophets who encoutered God directly to deliver His message. Similarly, Jesus revealed Himself to His chosen disciples. You can't possibly know better than those apostles.
Thomas called Jesus Lord and God, while Jesus accepted those names.

That said. What affects one's salvation is described in the Apostles' Creed. Whether you think Jesus is God, which remains controversial, may not affect one's salvation as long as the minimum requirement is fulfilled as mentioned in the faith statements of Apostles' Creed. If you know that Jesus is God with His Trinity, it means you are drawn closer to Him.
I understand Jesus himself to be a prophet; the prophet like Moses whom [his] God promised to raise up from among the people (Deuteronomy 18:15,18). I’m having difficulty understanding what you mean by “Jesus is God with His Trinity”. Would you clarify that for me?
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Re: Christendom's inconsistent beliefs #7: Was Jesus "god" when he was human?

Post #9

Post by Mattathias »

Eloi wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:48 pm You are "pressuming" right, but you are wrong in one thing: it is not ME, but the Scripture saying that Jesus is "god" in a secundary sense. You can see it by yourself in the quoted text. Again:

John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.

Did you notice which one is the principal sense?
Yes. What I called “highest sense” in another thread you’re calling “principal sense”. You and I are in agreement about that.
There is another example:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. (...)
I have a good feel for how JW’s understand the prologue in John, and the use “a god” in 1:1. It fits very well with your theology. I understand it quite differently. In discussions about John 1:1 I will almost always draw attention to the Tyndale translation and other English language translations published prior to 1611. I also make mention of post 1611 English translations which I believe convey the same or similar understanding as Tyndale’s. I don’t want to derail your thread, which might happen if we discuss that here.
Jesus himself talked about GOD in a very difference sense more than once. Notice these examples:

John 17:3 This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

Luke 18:19 Jesus said to him: “Why do you call me good? Nobody is good except one, God."
Yes, I agree that he did. Jesus is a Jew. He is acknowledging in prayer that his God, the Father, is the only true God.
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