Traditional Misreading? #2: 2 Corinthians 5:8

[Checkpoint]

A Traditional Misreading?
#2: 2 Corinthians 5:8

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Another familiar verse, one readily used to support a traditional teaching.


So, I ask you, tell us, in your own words, what it has conveyed to you up to now.

You may also wish to answer one or more of these questions:


1. Why does Paul use the word "rather" in verse 8; what are the two alternatives hecompares(the first is in an earlier verse)?

2. What does Paul mean by "absent from the body"?

3. In verse 8, what does he mean by "present with the Lord"?

4. Is Paul saying we will be "present with the Lord" after we die, before Jesus comes back?

5. Is Paul also saying we will then, when "present with the Lord," have no body?

I now show verse 8 in its immediate context, Chapter 5.

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

[Barney Bright]

I hoping that this applies to your question:

At 2 Corinthians 5:1, Paul refers to his death and speaks of an “earthly house” that is “dissolved.” I don't believe he was thinking of his body being deserted by a immortal soul within his body because I don't agree the scriptures say we have a Soul but instead the scriptures say we are Souls and I believe Paul believed that man is a soul too and not that he has a soul. (Genesis 2:7; 1 Corinthians 15:45) Paul was a spirit-anointed Christian whose hope, like that of his first-century brothers, was ‘reserved in the heavens.’ (Colossians 1:5; Romans 8:14-18) His ‘earnest desire,’ therefore, was to be resurrected to heaven as an immortal spirit creature at God’s appointed time. (2 Corinthians 5:2-4) Speaking of this hope, he wrote: “We shall all be changed . . . during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”​—1 Corinthians 15:51, 52.

At 2 Corinthians 5:8, Paul says: “We are of good courage and are well pleased rather to become absent from the body and to make our home with the Lord.” Some believe that these words refer to an intermediate state of waiting. Such ones refer also to Jesus’ promise to his faithful followers that he was going to prepare a place in which to ‘receive them home to himself.’ But we should ask ourselves when do the scriptures say such prospects are to be realized? Christ said that it would be when he ‘came again’ in his future presence. (John 14:1-3) Similarly, at 2 Corinthians 5:1-10, Paul said that the hope common to anointed Christians was to inherit a heavenly dwelling. This would come about, not through some presumed immortality of the soul, but through a resurrection during Christ’s second presence. (1 Corinthians 15:23, 42-44)

At Philippians 1:21, 23, Paul says: “In my case to live is Christ, and to die, gain. I am under pressure from these two things; but what I do desire is the releasing and the being with Christ, for this, to be sure, is far better.” I don't believe that Paul here refers to an “intermediate state" as some think. However, Paul says that he was put under pressure by two possibilities​—life or death. “But what I do desire,” he added, mentioning a third possibility, “is the releasing and the being with Christ.” But not to be with Christ immediately after death. As I said I believe Paul believed that faithful anointed Christians would be resurrected during the second presence of Christ.

This can be seen from his words found at Philippians 3:20, 21 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16. Such a “releasing” during the presence of Christ Jesus would enable Paul to receive the reward that God had prepared for him. That this was his hope is seen in his words to the young man Timothy: “From this time on there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day, yet not only to me, but also to all those who have loved his manifestation.”​—2 Timothy 4:8.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #1]

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:8)

Being an apostle, it is certain that the Holy Spirit was in Paul, and his understanding of the mysteries of the scriptures was opened as was done by Jesus for the twelve disciples before He ascended to heaven:

Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures. (Luke 24:45)

Thus, if Paul understood the scriptures, he knew that he would not go anywhere but to his grave when he died. Like Einstein, Paul also understood relativity. That is, from his perspective, he would go immediately to be with Christ! After his death, his next consciousness would be that of being born again as an immortal spirit at the resurrection and meeting Christ in the air. This is regardless of whether the resurrection occurred one second or thousands of years after his death. It would seem instantaneous to Paul. Why? Because the dead know nothing. They don't even know that they are dead:

The dead know not anything... (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

Time has no meaning to the dead. It is not there. If you have ever awakened from a deep sleep, you probably had no sense of the time when you awoke or how much time had passed. Death is similar. It will seem to every Christian that the very instant they die, they are being born again as a spirit and seeing Jesus.

Paul understood this mystery!

[1213]

A Traditional Misreading?
#2: 2 Corinthians 5:8

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Another familiar verse, one readily used to support a traditional teaching.

So, I ask you, tell us, in your own words, what it has conveyed to you up to now.....

I have understood that means, Paul would rather all ready be with the Lord than to live this life.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #1]
For those relatively few who are going to heaven to be with Jesus and reign with him over the earth, when they die they are "asleep" in death, and they no longer have any consciousness of time passing. Centuries later when they are brought back to life (in heaven with spirit bodies), it will seem like they immediately went to heaven because they had no knowledge of the passing of time.

The Bible mentions in many places that the dead are as if asleep, and Jesus said he would resurrect people (to heaven AND the earth) "on the last day." (John 6:40,44) So what I am posting here has to be correct.

[Noose001]

Many people/christians misunderstood Paul and other apostles on this and all the other doctrines. Resurrection being one of the major doctrines, it is sad to see that many do not understand.

These are the key highlights:

1. Resurrection is spiritual and not bodily ( don't let the language confuse you).

2. Resurrection is immediate for believers. They actually transition and not sleep during this church era. Before the church era, believers slept, awaiting the church era, basically awaiting the death of Peter.

Jesus is full of life; means if he gives you life, death doesn't overcome you not for a second but one transitions 'in the blink of an eye'.

Many get confused with the language, 'last day', 'last trump'. Do not be confused.

3. The resurrected believers (spirits) indwell the living believers on earth where they judge but also guide with Christ. For the living believer, this is what it means 'christ cometh with 1000s of his saints' or the 'second coming'.

Very interesting topic.

[Miles]

A Traditional Misreading?
#2: 2 Corinthians 5:8

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Another familiar verse, one readily used to support a traditional teaching.


So, I ask you, tell us, in your own words, what it has conveyed to you up to now.

You may also wish to answer one or more of these questions:


1. Why does Paul use the word "rather" in verse 8;

Well he doesn't necessarily use that word at all.

GW
We are confident and prefer to live away from this body and to live with the Lord.

ICB
So I say that we have courage. And we really want to be away from this body and be at home with the Lord.

TLB
And we are not afraid but are quite content to die, for then we will be at home with the Lord.

MEV
Instead, I say that we are confident and willing to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

NCB
Yet we are filled with confidence, even as we long to be exiled from the body and be at home with the Lord.

NLV
We are sure we will be glad to be free of these bodies. It will be good to be at home with the Lord.

VOICE
There is no doubt that we live with a daring passion, but in the end we prefer to be gone from this body so that we can be at home with the Lord.

WYC
But we be hardy [Forsooth we be hardy], and have good will, more to be in pilgrimage from the body, and to be present to God.

2. What does Paul mean by "absent from the body"?

Just a guess, but how about "not present with the body."

3. In verse 8, what does he mean by "present with the Lord"?

In as much as only 11% of the 61 bibles I looked at use this phrase, I haven't the slightest idea.

4. Is Paul saying we will be "present with the Lord" after we die, before Jesus comes back?

I doubt it because ain't Jesus the Lord?

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

5. Is Paul also saying we will then, when "present with the Lord," have no body?

Boy, twisting the verse as best I could I've come up empty here. Maybe yes. Maybe no.


.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to Miles in post #7]

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Another familiar verse, one readily used to support a traditional teaching.


So, I ask you, tell us, in your own words, what it has conveyed to you up to now.

You may also wish to answer one or more of these questions:


1. Why does Paul use the word "rather" in verse 8?

Well he doesn't necessarily use that word at all.

I understand what you are claiming, and that you have quoted translations in support of it not being used.

Well, what would seem to be a good way, is not necessarily so.

The better way is to look at the words in the Greek Interlinear to find whether or not Paul used "rather" in verse 8.
Your challenge led me to do just. I t was there; this confirms that Paul did use "rather".

This explains the word he used, and how it was used:

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Another familiar verse, one readily used to support a traditional teaching.


So, I ask you, tell us, in your own words, what it has conveyed to you up to now.

You may also wish to answer one or more of these questions:


1. Why does Paul use the word "rather" in verse 8;

Well he doesn't necessarily use that word at all.

I understand your point, and why you used various translations in support.

However, although translations can be helpful, they may be unhelpful in their word choices.

To find specific words, the best way is to look at the word in the Interlinear, in their Greek or Hebrew (it has its own literal translation into English).

So that is what I did after reading your post, and this is what I also found there:

HELPS Word-studies

3123 mállon – the comparative ("-er") form of malla ("very") meaning "rather, more than," i.e. more than what it is compared to. 3123 /mállon ("more than, better rather") is a comparative adverb so it refers to what is better as compared to what is merely "good." This involves prioritizing or ranking to elevate the better over the good, i.e. the higher priority (the more important) over the less-important.

Perhaps, in view of the above, you could now give a different answer to the first question.

[/quote]

Perhaps you can now offer a different response to my first question.

[Miles]

I understand what you are claiming, and that you have quoted translations in support of it not being used.

Well, what would seem to be a good way, is not necessarily so.

The better way is to look at the words in the Greek Interlinear to find whether or not Paul used "rather" in verse 8.

Your challennge led me to do just. I t was there; this confirms that Paul did use "rather".

Well, I doubt he spoke English or even ancient Greek, but if he wrote in ancient Greek he would have used "μᾶλλον."
And, according to Strong's Concordance the word some have translated as "rather, " μᾶλλον" (mallon) in 2 Cor. 5:8, has several meanings:

"1. more, to a greater degree, rather
........A. much, by far
........B. rather, sooner
........C. more willingly, more readily, sooner"

This explains the word he used, and how it was used:

Nah, it's just one of several options.

I understand your point, and why you used various translations in support.

However, although translations can be helpful, they may be unhelpful in their word choices.

To find specific words, the best way is to look at the word in the Interlinear, in their Greek or Hebrew (it has its own literal translation into English).

So that is what I did after reading your post, and this is what I also found there:

Fine, but in as much as 41% of the 61 Bible versions I checked disagree that the best translation is "rather," your finding is not persuasive. It comes with a big "Maybe," as do the others.




.

[onewithhim]

Many people/christians misunderstood Paul and other apostles on this and all the other doctrines. Resurrection being one of the major doctrines, it is sad to see that many do not understand.

These are the key highlights:

1. Resurrection is spiritual and not bodily ( don't let the language confuse you).

2. Resurrection is immediate for believers. They actually transition and not sleep during this church era. Before the church era, believers slept, awaiting the church era, basically awaiting the death of Peter.

Jesus is full of life; means if he gives you life, death doesn't overcome you not for a second but one transitions 'in the blink of an eye'.

Many get confused with the language, 'last day', 'last trump'. Do not be confused.

3. The resurrected believers (spirits) indwell the living believers on earth where they judge but also guide with Christ. For the living believer, this is what it means 'christ cometh with 1000s of his saints' or the 'second coming'.

Very interesting topic.

Sorry....you're not being straightforward with something true. Resurrection is, for most people who have ever lived, physical-bodily. It will be a very small number of people who are raised in spirit bodies. Those will be the rulers with Jesus during the Millennial Reign. All the believers who will live forever on Earth will "sleep" until "the last day." At this time, in which we are living now, believers who will reign with Christ will be resurrected immediately---since Jesus assumed his role as King around 100 years ago. Perhaps you do not understand what the terms "last day" and "bodily resurrection" actually mean.

Jesus gave up his physical human life so that mankind could have eternal physical life on this earth----God's original plan for humans and the earth. (Why would God change his mind about his original plans? Genesis 1:28; 2:15)