Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

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Eloi
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Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

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Post by Eloi »

What do Scriptures say about Jesus before he was born as a human? What did Jesus himself say about his past, before he was born? What other reasoning based on the Scriptures can we make to know the reality about Jesus before he was born on earth?

Some biblical statements show that Jesus already existed before he was born as a human. These quotes from the book of John are some examples:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence (...) 14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, yes, he cried out: “This was the one of whom I said, ‘The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, for he existed before me.’”) (...) 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.
... 3:13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man. (...) 31 The one who comes from above is over all others. The one who is from the earth is from the earth and speaks of things of the earth. The one who comes from heaven is over all others. (...)
... 6:33 For the bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” (...) 38 for I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me. (...) 62 What, therefore, if you should see the Son of man ascending to where he was before?
... 8:23 He went on to say to them: “You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world. 24 That is why I said to you: You will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am the one, you will die in your sins.” (...) 57 Then the Jews said to him: “You are not yet 50 years old, and still you have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid and went out of the temple.
... 17:1 Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you, (...) 5 So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.

Some teachers of Christendom teach that Jesus only came into being when he was born as a man. How do they interpret these biblical quotes about the pre-existence of Jesus?

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #51

Post by William »

myth-one.com wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:14 pm
William wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:25 pm [Replying to Eloi in post #1]

Biblical Jesus speaks of his pre-existence often, In the Gospels.
Biblical Jesus was a man.

Man is flesh, and a man's existence begins at birth when he is born of the flesh. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh."

So Jesus cannot speak of His existence prior to His birth, because He did not exist prior to His birth.

Jesus was not the Word.

Jesus was the Word made flesh, and that was accomplished about 2,022 years ago.
It doesn't matter to me that you claim that biblical Jesus cannot speak of His existence prior to His birth, because he obviously could and did, according to the records.

What you appear to be proposing is that Jesus is a separate entity from the entity he was prior to having his human experience?

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #52

Post by myth-one.com »

William wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:59 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:14 pm
William wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:25 pm [Replying to Eloi in post #1]

Biblical Jesus speaks of his pre-existence often, In the Gospels.
Biblical Jesus was a man.

Man is flesh, and a man's existence begins at birth when he is born of the flesh. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh."

So Jesus cannot speak of His existence prior to His birth, because He did not exist prior to His birth.

Jesus was not the Word.

Jesus was the Word made flesh, and that was accomplished about 2,022 years ago.
It doesn't matter to me that you claim that biblical Jesus cannot speak of His existence prior to His birth, because he obviously could and did, according to the records.

What you appear to be proposing is that Jesus is a separate entity from the entity he was prior to having his human experience?
No, He was not an entity until He was an entity. He became that unique human entity about 2022 years ago. Until that moment, the man Jesus did not exist.

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #53

Post by William »

myth-one.com wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:31 pm
William wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:59 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:14 pm
William wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:25 pm [Replying to Eloi in post #1]

Biblical Jesus speaks of his pre-existence often, In the Gospels.
Biblical Jesus was a man.

Man is flesh, and a man's existence begins at birth when he is born of the flesh. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh."

So Jesus cannot speak of His existence prior to His birth, because He did not exist prior to His birth.

Jesus was not the Word.

Jesus was the Word made flesh, and that was accomplished about 2,022 years ago.
It doesn't matter to me that you claim that biblical Jesus cannot speak of His existence prior to His birth, because he obviously could and did, according to the records.

What you appear to be proposing is that Jesus is a separate entity from the entity he was prior to having his human experience?
No, He was not an entity until He was an entity. He became that unique human entity about 2022 years ago. Until that moment, the man Jesus did not exist.
I don't see anyone debating otherwise with you.

What does Jesus say he was, prior to being a 'unique human entity'?

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #54

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:39 am
tam wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:43 pm Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:38 pm
tam wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:17 pm Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:03 am [Replying to Miles in post #17]

Jesus was created, just as the angels were.
Jaheshua was born.


The Scriptures refer to him at I Thess.4:16 as descending from heaven "with an archangel's voice." I don't understand what the difficulty is with referring to Jesus as the Archangel.
He also descends with the trumpet of God. But that does not make Him God.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Those things accompany/announce His return. The trumpet of God, the voice of an archangel. (and Michael is one of the chief princes - Daniel 10:13, which means that there is more than one chief prince. Christ, however, is the Prince OF princes, King OF kings, Lord OF lords.)


**

And just as Christ never taught that He is God (JAH), Christ never taught that He is Michael. Men have taught these things, but not even the apostles taught this (nor did Christ teach this to the apostles, and why would He not have done so if it were true?) Indeed, Miles provided some verses earlier that speak against Christ being an angel, just as there are verses that speak against Christ being God (meaning JAH). Why must men keep adding to what Christ said about who He is? Why not take Him at HIS word? He said that He is the Son of God. He said that He is the Word, the Light, the Truth, the Life, the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness. He never once said that He is an archangel, or that He is Michael, or that He is "YHWH".






Peace again to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Of course Jesus never "taught" that he was Michael. Why make an issue out of what his name was before he came to the earth? He wouldn't do that and neither would his disciples. There were many more serious issues to speak about.
You tell me. If it wasn't important then, why is it so important now that some men many centuries later are making an issue out of what they think was His name before He came to earth?
That's just it.....Jehovah's Witnesses aren't making an issue of it. You and other people here are.


Please look at what you said. You said... of course "Jesus" (and the apostles) never taught that He was Michael; why make an issue out of it; there were more serious issues to speak about. I mean the same thing with the word 'issue' as you meant. Your religion is teaching it, and therefore, making an issue out of it (in the same way that you meant "issue" above). So I asked the question I asked.


Peace again to you.

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #55

Post by onewithhim »

myth-one.com wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:30 pm
onewithhim wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:50 am You've just got the times mixed up as to when the demons sinned and were cast into spiritual darkness. That happened when they left their proper dwelling place in heaven and came to the earth to have sex with human women.

Genesis 6:1-4
2 Peter 2:4,5
I Peter 3:19,20
Jude 6
That's hilarious! For starters, there is no sex in heaven.
Nothing I said indicates that I think there is sex in heaven. I said that the angels LEFT heaven and came down to the earth to have sex with women.

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #56

Post by myth-one.com »

onewithhim wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:14 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:30 pm
onewithhim wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:50 am You've just got the times mixed up as to when the demons sinned and were cast into spiritual darkness. That happened when they left their proper dwelling place in heaven and came to the earth to have sex with human women.

Genesis 6:1-4
2 Peter 2:4,5
I Peter 3:19,20
Jude 6
That's hilarious! For starters, there is no sex in heaven.
Nothing I said indicates that I think there is sex in heaven. I said that the angels LEFT heaven and came down to the earth to have sex with women.
Speaking of Christians who shall enter the spiritual Kingdom of God, Jesus wrote:
For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. (Mark 12:25)
God created marriage to produce families. The sexual act within marriage procreates the human race. In the Kingdom of God, there are no humans and thus no marriage. There we will all have spiritual bodies like the angels which live forever.

Since we live forever, there is no longer any need to reproduce ourselves.

Why are these non-sexual angels interested in having sex with these woman on the earth?

The Bible also states that these women "bare children" to these "demons".

That's impossible according to what Jesus said.

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #57

Post by Eloi »

In the Hebrew Scriptures we are already told of a special Son of Jehovah.

Prov. 30:4 Who has ascended to heaven and then descended?
Who has gathered the wind in the palms of both hands?
Who has wrapped up the waters in his garment?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is his name and the name of his son—if you know?

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #58

Post by Revelations won »

Dear Onewithhim,

As I see it, Tammy,s post quoted below states very sound and correct doctrine.

“Post #44
Post
by tam » Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:43 pm
Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: ↑
Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:38 pm
tam wrote: ↑
Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:17 pm
Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: ↑
Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:03 am
[Replying to Miles in post #17]

Jesus was created, just as the angels were.
Jaheshua was born.


The Scriptures refer to him at I Thess.4:16 as descending from heaven "with an archangel's voice." I don't understand what the difficulty is with referring to Jesus as the Archangel.
He also descends with the trumpet of God. But that does not make Him God.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Those things accompany/announce His return. The trumpet of God, the voice of an archangel. (and Michael is one of the chief princes - Daniel 10:13, which means that there is more than one chief prince. Christ, however, is the Prince OF princes, King OF kings, Lord OF lords.)


**

And just as Christ never taught that He is God (JAH), Christ never taught that He is Michael. Men have taught these things, but not even the apostles taught this (nor did Christ teach this to the apostles, and why would He not have done so if it were true?) Indeed, Miles provided some verses earlier that speak against Christ being an angel, just as there are verses that speak against Christ being God (meaning JAH). Why must men keep adding to what Christ said about who He is? Why not take Him at HIS word? He said that He is the Son of God. He said that He is the Word, the Light, the Truth, the Life, the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness. He never once said that He is an archangel, or that He is Michael, or that He is "YHWH".






Peace again to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Of course Jesus never "taught" that he was Michael. Why make an issue out of what his name was before he came to the earth? He wouldn't do that and neither would his disciples. There were many more serious issues to speak about.
You tell me. If it wasn't important then, why is it so important now that some men many centuries later are making an issue out of what they think was His name before He came to earth?

Jesus came down from heaven before his name was called "Jesus" by Joseph and Mary. After he was born as a human he was named Jesus. What was his name before he was named Jesus? Certainly he had a name.
Christ is still called by His name (Jaheshua) even after He returned to His Father. He is very specifically called by His same name as when on earth in Revelation (see 22:16). The fact that He is still called by His same name, and Michael is also mentioned by name in Revelation, should indicate that they are two different people.

You say that Michael is "one of the princes," yet I believe that Daniel 10:13 means, in the original Hebrew, that Michael was the FIRST of the princes, or, the GREATEST of the princes. I think that is what the verse is saying. I have researched it and that is what I see as sensible.
Sensible because that is what fits with the doctrine?

Michael is one of the chief princes (there are more than one). Michael is not the Prince OF princes. Michael supports Christ (the Prince OF princes).
You are actually saying that there is another Being in heaven who can stand up for, or, mediate for, the people with God, besides Jesus Christ---if Michael is not Jesus. There are two Beings, you say, that can save the people!


I am not saying that, and the phrase is not 'stand up FOR'. The phrase is stand up. Stand up does not equal mediate. These are not synonyms. Just because Michael stands up does not mean that Michael is Christ, or that Michael is mediating on behalf of people.
Michael certainly is described in Daniel chapter 12 as Jesus is described in Scripture, particularly Matthew chapter 24.


Actually no. The being who is speaking to Daniel that last time (Daniel 10) is described in the same way as Christ is described in Revelation.

Compare Daniel's description of the One who came to Him that last time (Chapter 10):

I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in linen, with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist. 6 His body was like topaz, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude.


With John's description of Christ (Rev 1):

And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man,[d] dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

It is not Gabriel speaking that last time to Daniel. If it had been Gabriel this last time, Daniel would have recognized him, as he did the previous time (Chapter 9):

"... while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me..."



Christ is the One speaking to Daniel in Chapter 10 (Daniel also called him, 'my lord'). Michael is the one who supports Christ.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy”

My comment: Thank you Tammy! Your post is right on target!

My comment to other posters: The scriptures make it very clear that God is not only the father of Jesus Christ, but also the Father of the spirit bodies of all mankind.

I think this clearly establishes that each and every one of us the fact that every one of us is either a son or daughter of heavenly parents and lived as spirit children of God our Father. Thus we indeed by virtue of our divine parentage has the potential of thus haveing the potential of partaking of “the Divine nature” as stated in the scriptures.

Kind regards,
RW

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #59

Post by Eloi »

myth-one.com wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:14 pm
William wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:25 pm [Replying to Eloi in post #1]

Biblical Jesus speaks of his pre-existence often, In the Gospels.
Biblical Jesus was a man.

Man is flesh, and a man's existence begins at birth when he is born of the flesh. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh."

So Jesus cannot speak of His existence prior to His birth, because He did not exist prior to His birth.

Jesus was not the Word.

Jesus was the Word made flesh, and that was accomplished about 2,022 years ago.
This comment surprised me a lot.

The post I opened this topic with demonstrates that the Bible teaches the exact opposite of what this poster says. In fact, after his resurrection, Jesus is STILL considered as the Word, the Verb, or in Greek the LOGOS of God.

Rev. 19:11 I saw heaven opened, and look! a white horse. And the one seated on it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness. 12 His eyes are a fiery flame, and on his head are many diadems. He has a name written that no one knows but he himself, 13 and he is clothed with an outer garment stained with blood, and he is called by the name The Word of God. 14 Also, the armies in heaven were following him on white horses, and they were clothed in white, clean, fine linen. 15 And out of his mouth protrudes a sharp, long sword with which to strike the nations, and he will shepherd them with a rod of iron. Moreover, he treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his outer garment, yes, on his thigh, he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.

Have you noticed that some who call themselves "Christians" teach things very different from what the Scriptures say?

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #60

Post by myth-one.com »

[Replying to Eloi in post #59]


The Word is God:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:1-3)
<==========================>


But Jesus was a man:
Hebrews 29 wrote:But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Jesus Christ was made to be "a little lower than the angels," exactly as man was created!
Psalm 8:4-5 wrote:What is man, that thou art mindful of him? ...For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels,
1 Timothy 2:5 wrote:For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
<==========================>


But Jesus was a very special purpose man. He was created as the "word made flesh":
John 1:14 wrote:And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...
Mankind cannot understand how that was accomplished, as it involves another world -- the spiritual or heavenly world.

But we can know that the Word and Jesus are not the same being. One is God and one is a man.

<==========================>


We can also know why this had to be done in this manner:

Man's reward or inheritance under both Bible Testaments is the same -- everlasting life.

Under the original Testament, man had to remain sinless to gain everlasting life.

However, there was a fault in that Testament in that all men who had ever lived, had sinned.

<==========================>


A better covenant was obviously required.

The Word was made flesh as the man Jesus Christ. As a man, Jesus was a potential benefactor under terms of the original covenant.

Jesus lived a sinless life, died His first death, and became the only human heir under the Old Testament Covenant.

God then allowed Jesus to offer His just reward as a gift to any of mankind who believed in Jesus as their Savior from the wages of their sins.

Thus salvation became a gift of God through Jesus Christ.

That is why Jesus HAD TO BE A MAN!

If He was not a man, He could not become an heir to everlasting life under the original covenant between man and God.

Actually, He had to be a Jewish man, as the first covenant between man and God was made only with the nation of Israel.

Therefore, He was a party under that first covenant.

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