Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

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Eloi
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Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #1

Post by Eloi »

What do Scriptures say about Jesus before he was born as a human? What did Jesus himself say about his past, before he was born? What other reasoning based on the Scriptures can we make to know the reality about Jesus before he was born on earth?

Some biblical statements show that Jesus already existed before he was born as a human. These quotes from the book of John are some examples:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence (...) 14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, yes, he cried out: “This was the one of whom I said, ‘The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, for he existed before me.’”) (...) 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.
... 3:13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man. (...) 31 The one who comes from above is over all others. The one who is from the earth is from the earth and speaks of things of the earth. The one who comes from heaven is over all others. (...)
... 6:33 For the bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” (...) 38 for I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me. (...) 62 What, therefore, if you should see the Son of man ascending to where he was before?
... 8:23 He went on to say to them: “You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world. 24 That is why I said to you: You will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am the one, you will die in your sins.” (...) 57 Then the Jews said to him: “You are not yet 50 years old, and still you have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid and went out of the temple.
... 17:1 Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you, (...) 5 So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.

Some teachers of Christendom teach that Jesus only came into being when he was born as a man. How do they interpret these biblical quotes about the pre-existence of Jesus?

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #61

Post by Eloi »

Thank you for telling me what you believe.

This is what the Scriptures say:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence (...) 14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, yes, he cried out: “This was the one of whom I said, ‘The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, for he existed before me.’”) (...) 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.
... 3:13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man. (...) 31 The one who comes from above is over all others. The one who is from the earth is from the earth and speaks of things of the earth. The one who comes from heaven is over all others. (...)
... 6:33 For the bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” (...) 38 for I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me. (...) 62 What, therefore, if you should see the Son of man ascending to where he was before?
... 8:23 He went on to say to them: “You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world. 24 That is why I said to you: You will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am the one, you will die in your sins.” (...) 57 Then the Jews said to him: “You are not yet 50 years old, and still you have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid and went out of the temple.
... 17:1 Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you, (...) 5 So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #62

Post by myth-one.com »

[Replying to Eloi in post #61]

Thanks for your confirmations!

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #63

Post by Eloi »

myth-one.com wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:55 pm [Replying to Eloi in post #61]

Thanks for your confirmations!
Exactly. The Bible confirms that Jesus was well aware of the life he had had in heaven with God before he was born as a human. He was obviously a separate person from the Father of him.

Do you believe that angels are individuals, independent persons? What kind of body do you think they have?
What kind of body did Jesus, the Word, have before being a human?

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #64

Post by myth-one.com »

Eloi wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:25 am
myth-one.com wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:55 pm [Replying to Eloi in post #61]

Thanks for your confirmations!
Exactly. The Bible confirms that Jesus was well aware of the life he had had in heaven with God before he was born as a human. He was obviously a separate person from the Father of him.

Do you believe that angels are individuals, independent persons? What kind of body do you think they have?
What kind of body did Jesus, the Word, have before being a human?
Yes, angels are independent spirit bodied beings.

But it is an error to refer to them as persons, as a person is a human being by definition:

Person: a human being regarded as an individual.

Jesus was a man with a natural flesh and blood physical body like you and I.

Not much information is given as to the characteristics of spiritual bodies in the Bible, as man cannot understand that world.

But the Bible does state that they can move as the wind, are immortal, and have power over the physical world -- meaning they can take on other forms, speak, become bushes, etc. And this makes sense as they were created to maintain the earth.

The Word is a spirit bodied being.

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #65

Post by Eloi »

The way I see it, who believe in the existence of non-human intelligent beings, a "person" is an individual with his own personality.

If "The Word is a spirit bodied being" as you say (and I agree), then the man Jesus was the same person that he had been when he was the Logos next to God ... at that moment with a human body (John 1:14).

Heb. 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, and forever.

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #66

Post by tomblj »

How about taking a step back and having a little look at just what exactly the original questions were and what they are assuming?
What do Scriptures say about Jesus before he was born as a human? What did Jesus himself say about his past, before he was born? What other reasoning based on the Scriptures can we make to know the reality about Jesus before he was born on earth?
Some biblical statements show that Jesus already existed before he was born as a human.
...followed by a whole bunch of quotes from John...
Some teachers of Christendom teach that Jesus only came into being when he was born as a man. How do they interpret these biblical quotes about the pre-existence of Jesus?
I would suggest that some of the most fruitful places to begin to understand this question would be reading up on Pauline Christology and rhetorical/critical studies on John & the other gospels. These are some of the best places you could go to understand what's actually being said.
But what about the Scriptures you ask? Are you a complete liberal?
The problem here, as I see it, is a lack of definition or nuance in the original questions. Now I could be totally wrong here, misreading the intent and reading so much more into it - but this is exactly what I think has happened.
Basically the problem is that there are so many different Jesus' (depending who you ask), so many different Scriptures, so many different interpretations, dogmatics and theologies, and so much personal pride/fear and other emotions at stake - that unless some parameters are set up front we all end up talking past each other.

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #67

Post by myth-one.com »

Eloi wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:28 am The way I see it, who believe in the existence of non-human intelligent beings, a "person" is an individual with his own personality.

If "The Word is a spirit bodied being" as you say (and I agree), then the man Jesus was the same person that he had been when he was the Logos next to God ... at that moment with a human body (John 1:14).

Heb. 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, and forever.
Jesus never was the Logos next to God.

If the Word was human then Jesus would never have been needed -- as the Word could do what Jesus did.

The Word could come to earth, live a sinless life, and die without ever committing a sin.

But He could not do that because of the die part.

God cannot die!!

So the Word (God) was mysteriously "made flesh" as the man Jesus Christ for the specific purpose of dying:
Hebrews 2:9 wrote:But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #68

Post by Eloi »

Thank you for expressing your belief.

This is what the Scriptures say:

John 1:14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth. (...) 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.

Do you think that what you believe is what is explained to us there?

Rev. 19:11 And I saw the heaven opened, and, look! a white horse. And the one seated upon it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness. 12 His eyes are a fiery flame, and upon his head are many diadems. He has a name written that no one knows but he himself, 13 and he is arrayed with an outer garment sprinkled with blood, and the name he is called is The Word of God. 14 Also, the armies that were in heaven were following him on white horses, and they were clothed in white, clean, fine linen. 15 And out of his mouth there protrudes a sharp long sword, that he may strike the nations with it, and he will shepherd them with a rod of iron. He treads too the winepress of the anger of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 And upon his outer garment, even upon his thigh, he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.

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