What Jesus Said

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William
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What Jesus Said

Post #1

Post by William »

Rule of thumb re scriptural statements about biblical Jesus.

IF;
any such statement contradicts or is otherwise inconsistent with what biblical Jesus stated about himself,
THEN;
regardless that it is 'in the bible', biblical Jesus' statements about himself, take precedence over any other biblical statements about him.


Rule of Thumb = a broadly accurate guide or principle, based on practice rather than theory.

Take Precedence = to be more important (than something else)

Q: Is there any honest reason why Christians and others should not apply this rule of thumb in relation to statements biblical Jesus makes about himself when other biblical statements about Jesus contradict or are otherwise inconsistent with those statements biblical Jesus makes about himself?

[iow]
Are there any honest reasons why Christians [and others] should not apply this rule of thumb in relation to things said in the bible about biblical Jesus, whenever there are contradictions and inconsistencies.

[Examples of such contradictions and inconsistencies will no doubt follow as the thread proceeds. The focus of the thread is specific to what biblical Jesus states about himself and the above rule of thumb.]

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Re: What Jesus Said

Post #21

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #20]
Interesting point, because Rehab in Jericho lied to the men of Jericho about the Israelite men whom she was hiding. I have tossed that around for quite awhile.

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Re: What Jesus Said

Post #22

Post by William »

[Replying to tam in post #18]

Thanks for your thoughtful reply and accomapning quotes attributed to being spoken by Jesus, Tam.
I was hoping that Christians would go to the trouble of taking a look for themselves and reporting what they find, re the subject Thread.


Regarding quotes from Revalations, because the nature of the witness is one man, I treat such as non-supporting evidence due the fact that the author may have been deluded, just as some calling themselves Christians argue re OOBEs... it could be delusion,.. we have one man's testament whereby he speaks on behalf of Jesus, but that information must be treated as low priority re the rule of thumb.

Would be the same if I started telling the readers that in my alternate state I have spoken with Jesus and he said "such and such" I can be treated as delusional, and not taken seriously for that.

So back to words attributed to having come through the breath of Jesus, as you have shown, it appears that Jesus agrees that all things are subject to him.

Does this mean that The Fathers Kingdom - something biblical Jesus mentioned very often - is also subject to Jesus?

Does it also mean, That The Faher is subject to Jesus?

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Re: What Jesus Said

Post #23

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
William wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:39 pm [Replying to tam in post #18]


Regarding quotes from Revalations, because the nature of the witness is one man, I treat such as non-supporting evidence due the fact that the author may have been deluded, just as some calling themselves Christians argue re OOBEs... it could be delusion,.. we have one man's testament whereby he speaks on behalf of Jesus, but that information must be treated as low priority re the rule of thumb.
You are free to treat some statements as high priority and others as low priority if you wish, but the rule of thumb presented in the OP makes no such distinction.

So back to words attributed to having come through the breath of Jesus, as you have shown, it appears that Jesus agrees that all things are subject to him.

Does this mean that The Fathers Kingdom - something biblical Jesus mentioned very often - is also subject to Jesus?
I believe the verses supplied in the previous post show that it does. Such as the parable of the sheep and the goats:

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.



He is the King of that Kingdom, so yeah.

He is also the son and so, HEIR, of His Father's Kingdom, as is shown in the parable of the tenants:

“Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 34 When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.

35 “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37 Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.

38 “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.


Does it also mean, That The Father is subject to Jesus?
Of course not. He never, ever, said or even implied such a thing. He always put His Father's will first (even over His own; Luke 22:42), obeyed the commands of His Father, spoke the words His Father commanded Him to speak, gave glory to His Father, called His Father also His God.

“Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ Jaheshua,
tammy

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Re: What Jesus Said

Post #24

Post by William »

tam wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:27 pm Peace to you,
William wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:39 pm [Replying to tam in post #18]


Regarding quotes from Revalations, because the nature of the witness is one man, I treat such as non-supporting evidence due the fact that the author may have been deluded, just as some calling themselves Christians argue re OOBEs... it could be delusion,.. we have one man's testament whereby he speaks on behalf of Jesus, but that information must be treated as low priority re the rule of thumb.
You are free to treat some statements as high priority and others as low priority if you wish, but the rule of thumb presented in the OP makes no such distinction.
Sure. If you are saying it is acceptable in all honesty NOT to make a distinction between what Jesus says about himself as per the author's of the Gospels recollections of what biblical Jesus said of himself and of one person's unsupported claims as to what Jesus said about himself, then that is your prerogative.

I maintain the two types of source material are different enough that they can be treated honestly, as having a distinction.
If it were the case that four individuals experienced the same thing as the one individual who wrote Revelations, and wrote of their experience, then yes, that could be classed as having no less distinction than the Gospels. ...but since it isn't the case, I have to take the more honest position of not treating them as the same.
b]Rule of thumb re scriptural statements about biblical Jesus.[/b]

IF;
any such statement contradicts or is otherwise inconsistent with what biblical Jesus stated about himself,
THEN;
regardless that it is 'in the bible', biblical Jesus' statements about himself, take precedence over any other biblical statements about him.


Rule of Thumb = a broadly accurate guide or principle, based on practice rather than theory.

Take Precedence = to be more important (than something else)

Q: Is there any honest reason why Christians and others should not apply this rule of thumb in relation to statements biblical Jesus makes about himself when other biblical statements about Jesus contradict or are otherwise inconsistent with those statements biblical Jesus makes about himself?

[iow]
Are there any honest reasons why Christians [and others] should not apply this rule of thumb in relation to things said in the bible about biblical Jesus, whenever there are contradictions and inconsistencies.
So back to words attributed to having come through the breath of Jesus, as you have shown, it appears that Jesus agrees that all things are subject to him.

Does this mean that The Fathers Kingdom - something biblical Jesus mentioned very often - is also subject to Jesus?
I believe the verses supplied in the previous post show that it does. Such as the parable of the sheep and the goats:

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.



He is the King of that Kingdom, so yeah.

He is also the son and so, HEIR, of His Father's Kingdom, as is shown in the parable of the tenants:

“Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 34 When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.

35 “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37 Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.

38 “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
Okay. So we can agree that The Fathers Kingdom is subject to Jesus, according to what Jsus said about that Kingdom...
Does it also mean, that The Father is subject to Jesus?
Of course not. He never, ever, said or even implied such a thing. He always put His Father's will first (even over His own; Luke 22:42), obeyed the commands of His Father, spoke the words His Father commanded Him to speak, gave glory to His Father, called His Father also His God.

“Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
Therefore we can categorically state that according to the words of Jesus, he does not claim at all, that all things are subject to him.

Some things are simply NOT subject to him.

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Re: What Jesus Said

Post #25

Post by tam »

[Replying to William in post #24]

His Father, yes. Of course. (Just so you know, owh would not have been stating otherwise, herself.)

Did you have a point about that in relation to the OP and 'general rule of thumb'? Just curious, because I don't think anyone (in the bible) ever makes the claim that the Father is or would ever be subject to the Son.


Peace again to you.

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Re: What Jesus Said

Post #26

Post by tam »

Just to quickly add, as per Daniel 7,

“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

The 'one like a son of man' is Christ (as per the references Christ made to coming with the clouds of heaven), the Ancient of Days is His Father. The Father is the One who gives that authority, glory, and sovereign power - TO - the 'one like a son of man' (Christ).



Peace again!

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Re: What Jesus Said

Post #27

Post by William »

tam wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:06 pm Just to quickly add, as per Daniel 7,

“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

The 'one like a son of man' is Christ (as per the references Christ made to coming with the clouds of heaven), the Ancient of Days is His Father. The Father is the One who gives that authority, glory, and sovereign power - TO - the 'one like a son of man' (Christ).
Re the rule of thumb, visions had by individuals are to be treated as unsupported information and possible products of delusion .

Accordingly, what reference does biblical Jesus give which tells us that he is to be an image of The Father and worshiped by human beings?

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Re: What Jesus Said

Post #28

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
William wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:51 pm
tam wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:06 pm Just to quickly add, as per Daniel 7,

“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

The 'one like a son of man' is Christ (as per the references Christ made to coming with the clouds of heaven), the Ancient of Days is His Father. The Father is the One who gives that authority, glory, and sovereign power - TO - the 'one like a son of man' (Christ).
Re the rule of thumb, visions had by individuals are to be treated as unsupported information and possible products of delusion .
Um, that is not part of the rule of thumb you proposed in the OP.

The 'rule of thumb' that you stated in the OP said that His words about Himself should take precedence if there is conflicting or inconsistent claims from others about Him. So far, there have been none presented. Not even this, since Christ referenced Himself as the One who will come with the clouds of heaven.

At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. Matt 24:30

“But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” Matt 26:64


**

In any case, I had asked the following question in relation to the Father not being in subjection to the Son:

Did you have a point about that in relation to the OP and 'general rule of thumb'? Just curious, because I don't think anyone (in the bible) ever makes the claim that the Father is or would ever be subject to the Son.

Accordingly, what reference does biblical Jesus give which tells us that he is to be an image of The Father and worshiped by human beings?
What do you mean accordingly? I'm not sure what connection you are drawing. In answer to your question though, He did not mention worship of Himself, but He does confirm that He is the image of His Father:

Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. John 14:9

"If you knew Me, you would know My Father as well." John 8:10

“Whoever believes in Me does not believe in Me alone, but in the One who sent Me. 45And whoever sees Me sees the One who sent Me." John 12:44, 45

Furthermore, the Father judges no one, but has assigned all judgment to the Son, 23so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. John 5:22, 23

“Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. John 5:19

I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it. John 12:49

If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. John 14:7

All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. Matt 11:27



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: What Jesus Said

Post #29

Post by William »

Rule of thumb has it that what Biblical Jesus claims about himself takes presedence over any claims which contradict his own.

In relation to the information you have provided as claims made by Jesus which might contradict other claims made by Jesus, rule of thumb would have to be that one supports either contradiction but cannot support both.

The script you give supports that Jesus is not seeing himself as the one who should be worshipped.

Does Jesus worsip The Father?

Are you suggesting that Jesus being as you call it

In the image of his Father,

that this means Jesus is to be worshipped?

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Re: What Jesus Said

Post #30

Post by tam »

[Replying to William in post #29]

I quoted the verse from Daniel to show that Christ was given that authority from/by His Father, the Father being the HIGHEST authority (so as to be able to give someone else authority to begin with). That is all.

That was the claim being discussed, correct? Christ having been given all authority, all things in subjection to Him, except of course His Father (the one who gave him authority).


Peace again to you.

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