What Jesus Said

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William
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What Jesus Said

Post #1

Post by William »

Rule of thumb re scriptural statements about biblical Jesus.

IF;
any such statement contradicts or is otherwise inconsistent with what biblical Jesus stated about himself,
THEN;
regardless that it is 'in the bible', biblical Jesus' statements about himself, take precedence over any other biblical statements about him.


Rule of Thumb = a broadly accurate guide or principle, based on practice rather than theory.

Take Precedence = to be more important (than something else)

Q: Is there any honest reason why Christians and others should not apply this rule of thumb in relation to statements biblical Jesus makes about himself when other biblical statements about Jesus contradict or are otherwise inconsistent with those statements biblical Jesus makes about himself?

[iow]
Are there any honest reasons why Christians [and others] should not apply this rule of thumb in relation to things said in the bible about biblical Jesus, whenever there are contradictions and inconsistencies.

[Examples of such contradictions and inconsistencies will no doubt follow as the thread proceeds. The focus of the thread is specific to what biblical Jesus states about himself and the above rule of thumb.]

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Re: What Jesus Said

Post #41

Post by Miles »

William wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:13 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:41 am
tam wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:31 am Peace again to you (and please see also the previous post, bottom of previous page),

Just to clear up some possible confusion, here are other versions of the Daniel 7:14 verse. I had quoted from the NIV (which contains the word 'worship'), but the NIV can sometimes take liberties.

And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed. ESV

He was given authority, honor, and sovereignty over all the nations of the world, so that people of every race and nation and language would obey him. His rule is eternal—it will never end. His kingdom will never be destroyed. NLT

And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. KJV

“And to Him was given dominion, Honor, and a kingdom, So that all the peoples, nations, and populations of all languages Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed. NASB

And to him is given dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, and all peoples, nations, and languages do serve him, his dominion is a dominion age-during, that passeth not away, and his kingdom that which is not destroyed. Young's literal

The NIV appears to be the only version that has the word 'worship' in it. I apologize if that made you think I was making a claim about worship.

Just to clear things up a bit further; of the 54 Bibles I looked at "worship" occurs in 2 versions, the AMP and the EHV. "Worshiped" occurs in 3 versions, the NIRV, NIV, and NIVUK, all of which (5 in total) account for 9.2 % of the 54. The rest use "obey" (3.4%); "serve and worship," and "become his servants" (1.85% each); and "serve(ing)" (85%)


.
Is it to be understood therefore, that the act of 'worship' amounts to being the same thing as the act of obedience?
In as much as the 5 Bibles using "worship(ed)" outnumber the 2 using "obey" by a factor of 2.5. my impression is that doesn't amount to being the same thing. That and, of course, the fact that "worship" and "obey" are hardly synonyms.


.

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Re: What Jesus Said

Post #42

Post by William »

[Replying to Miles in post #41]

Therefore we can turn our attention to anything which Jesus might have said about worship.

It involves prayer;
Gospel - Matt.
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

Gospel Mark
“it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.”

Gospel John
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

“It is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.’”
[so there is reference to obedience being part of worship]
Side Note
In all the above, there is no reference of worshiping Jesus, mentioned by Jesus. Although it is fair to say that given what worship means as explained by biblical Jesus, even the command to love one another could be inferred to mean worship one another...

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Re: What Jesus Said

Post #43

Post by Miles »

William wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:20 pm [Replying to Miles in post #41]

Therefore we can turn our attention to anything which Jesus might have said about worship.

It involves prayer;
Gospel - Matt.
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

Gospel Mark
“it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.”

Gospel John
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

“It is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.’”

[so there is reference to obedience being part of worship]
Yup, but not the same thing as worship, per your query: "Is it to be understood therefore, that the act of 'worship' amounts to being the same thing as the act of obedience?" "Part Of" is not synonymous with "The Same Thing As."


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Re: What Jesus Said

Post #44

Post by William »

[Replying to Miles in post #43]

Agreed. Obedience is an ingredient of the recipe of worship Biblical Jesus spoke of , not the whole.

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Re: What Jesus Said

Post #45

Post by onewithhim »

William wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:16 pm
tam wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:18 am [Replying to William in post #29]

I quoted the verse from Daniel to show that Christ was given that authority from/by His Father, the Father being the HIGHEST authority (so as to be able to give someone else authority to begin with). That is all.

That was the claim being discussed, correct? Christ having been given all authority, all things in subjection to Him, except of course His Father (the one who gave him authority).


Peace again to you.
Re the rule of thumb, what I asked was whether Jesus worships The Father. We have established that when he said "all things" he was not being literal.

Now we are looking into the claim that Jesus is to be worshipped as The image of The Father.
Jesus was quoting from Exodus and Deuteronomy where his Father's name in Hebrew (YHWH), commonly known as "Jehovah," is found, when he was countering Satan's attacks as told in the gospel of Luke. Jesus said, "It is written, 'it is YHWH your God you must worship, and it is to him ALONE you must render sacred service.'" (Luke 4:8)

Therefore Jesus would not have countenanced any worship to himself. And he worshiped YHWH also as his God, for he made that clear when he said to Mary in the garden: "...I am ascending to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." (John 20:17).

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Re: What Jesus Said

Post #46

Post by William »

[Replying to onewithhim in post #45]
Jesus was quoting from Exodus and Deuteronomy where his Father's name in Hebrew (YHWH), commonly known as "Jehovah," is found, when he was countering Satan's attacks as told in the gospel of Luke. Jesus said, "It is written, 'it is YHWH your God you must worship, and it is to him ALONE you must render sacred service.'" (Luke 4:8)
We cannot tell if that story is what Jesus said or something made up further down the track by Christian Priesthood, while they were designing the Satan Mythology into what has become the accepted image of Satan, as it is known today...

Image
Therefore Jesus would not have countenanced any worship to himself. And he worshiped YHWH also as his God, for he made that clear when he said to Mary in the garden: "...I am ascending to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." (John 20:17).
Jesus never referred to YHWH as God, but only ever referred to God [The Creator] as The Father.

Thus we cannot be certain with Jesus' words as priority, [rule of thumb] that YHWH is The Father.

What we do know, is that there is a seeming contradiction in Jesus activity - a behavior quite out of character - in the temple-rage scene.

That at least established a connection with the "My Father's House" and YHWH if it is true that the temple was dedicated to YHWH as a house of worship, but it too may be a fictional addition of Christian Priesthood later on, because they wanted to establish that connection for other reasons contrary to Christ.

The seeming contradiction is in when Jesus tells the Jewish Priesthood that their father is Satan.

These things in mind, a verdict cannot easily be reached.

Jesus does however, give some clue as to the thrust of his message in that, The Father created individual humans in order to have a relationship with them.

So if that fits the description of YHWH, then it does add points in favor that Jesus is indeed speaking of the same Entity.

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Re: What Jesus Said

Post #47

Post by onewithhim »

William wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:34 pm [Replying to onewithhim in post #45]
Jesus was quoting from Exodus and Deuteronomy where his Father's name in Hebrew (YHWH), commonly known as "Jehovah," is found, when he was countering Satan's attacks as told in the gospel of Luke. Jesus said, "It is written, 'it is YHWH your God you must worship, and it is to him ALONE you must render sacred service.'" (Luke 4:8)
We cannot tell if that story is what Jesus said or something made up further down the track by Christian Priesthood, while they were designing the Satan Mythology into what has become the accepted image of Satan, as it is known today...

Image
Therefore Jesus would not have countenanced any worship to himself. And he worshiped YHWH also as his God, for he made that clear when he said to Mary in the garden: "...I am ascending to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." (John 20:17).
Jesus never referred to YHWH as God, but only ever referred to God [The Creator] as The Father.

Thus we cannot be certain with Jesus' words as priority, [rule of thumb] that YHWH is The Father.

What we do know, is that there is a seeming contradiction in Jesus activity - a behavior quite out of character - in the temple-rage scene.

That at least established a connection with the "My Father's House" and YHWH if it is true that the temple was dedicated to YHWH as a house of worship, but it too may be a fictional addition of Christian Priesthood later on, because they wanted to establish that connection for other reasons contrary to Christ.

The seeming contradiction is in when Jesus tells the Jewish Priesthood that their father is Satan.

These things in mind, a verdict cannot easily be reached.

Jesus does however, give some clue as to the thrust of his message in that, The Father created individual humans in order to have a relationship with them.

So if that fits the description of YHWH, then it does add points in favor that Jesus is indeed speaking of the same Entity.
You say that only Jesus' words (as, I understand, to be gleaned from the Bible) are important, and yet when I show you something Jesus said, in the Scriptures, you say "what proof is there that he said it?" Be reasonable. Read over again what I showed here about what Jesus said of Jehovah in Luke's gospel. You go on to question the authenticity of the Bible's narrative. You say how do we know that the temple was really YHWH's? You can question everything in the Bible.....yet it is supposed to be a given that the Bible is the authoritative source for belief systems that claim to worship the God of the Bible. What I argue is totally based on what is written in the Bible.

Jesus quoted Isaiah 61:1,2 in Luke's gospel, applying it to himself (Luke 4:16-20), showing that YHWH anointed him and sent him to the earth. Who else would this YHWH be other than his Father? In Psalm 2 YHWH speaks of His Son whom He tells the nations to honor.....the "anointed one" or Messiah. I think it's pretty clear that YHWH is Jesus' Father (and his God).

Your final words suggest that you might agree with what I'm trying to say. I appreciate your comments.

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Re: What Jesus Said

Post #48

Post by William »

onewithhim wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:50 pm
William wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:34 pm [Replying to onewithhim in post #45]
Jesus was quoting from Exodus and Deuteronomy where his Father's name in Hebrew (YHWH), commonly known as "Jehovah," is found, when he was countering Satan's attacks as told in the gospel of Luke. Jesus said, "It is written, 'it is YHWH your God you must worship, and it is to him ALONE you must render sacred service.'" (Luke 4:8)
We cannot tell if that story is what Jesus said or something made up further down the track by Christian Priesthood, while they were designing the Satan Mythology into what has become the accepted image of Satan, as it is known today...

Image
Therefore Jesus would not have countenanced any worship to himself. And he worshiped YHWH also as his God, for he made that clear when he said to Mary in the garden: "...I am ascending to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." (John 20:17).
Jesus never referred to YHWH as God, but only ever referred to God [The Creator] as The Father.

Thus we cannot be certain with Jesus' words as priority, [rule of thumb] that YHWH is The Father.

What we do know, is that there is a seeming contradiction in Jesus activity - a behavior quite out of character - in the temple-rage scene.

That at least established a connection with the "My Father's House" and YHWH if it is true that the temple was dedicated to YHWH as a house of worship, but it too may be a fictional addition of Christian Priesthood later on, because they wanted to establish that connection for other reasons contrary to Christ.

The seeming contradiction is in when Jesus tells the Jewish Priesthood that their father is Satan.

These things in mind, a verdict cannot easily be reached.

Jesus does however, give some clue as to the thrust of his message in that, The Father created individual humans in order to have a relationship with them.

So if that fits the description of YHWH, then it does add points in favor that Jesus is indeed speaking of the same Entity.
You say that only Jesus' words (as, I understand, to be gleaned from the Bible) are important, and yet when I show you something Jesus said, in the Scriptures, you say "what proof is there that he said it?" Be reasonable. Read over again what I showed here about what Jesus said of Jehovah in Luke's gospel. You go on to question the authenticity of the Bible's narrative. You say how do we know that the temple was really YHWH's? You can question everything in the Bible.....yet it is supposed to be a given that the Bible is the authoritative source for belief systems that claim to worship the God of the Bible. What I argue is totally based on what is written in the Bible.

Jesus quoted Isaiah 61:1,2 in Luke's gospel, applying it to himself (Luke 4:16-20), showing that YHWH anointed him and sent him to the earth. Who else would this YHWH be other than his Father? In Psalm 2 YHWH speaks of His Son whom He tells the nations to honor.....the "anointed one" or Messiah. I think it's pretty clear that YHWH is Jesus' Father (and his God).

Your final words suggest that you might agree with what I'm trying to say. I appreciate your comments.
I do not disagree with what you are saying. I simply think it is important to make sure that no image is associated with The Father in order that the principle and surrounding context, as recorded in 2 Corinthians 11:14, is utilized as a fail-safe.

I worship no image of The Father on account of that passage and because one can develop and maintain a relationship with The Father, as was always intended...through The Fathers Voice.

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Re: What Jesus Said

Post #49

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to William in post #48]
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by you listening to the Father's voice. Anyway, the Father's voice is loud and clear throughout the Bible, for, like Jesus said to the Father, "Your Word is truth." (John 17:17) The Scriptures Jesus quoted were all the Father's voice.

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Re: What Jesus Said

Post #50

Post by William »

[Replying to onewithhim in post #49]
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by you listening to the Father's voice.
I mean that scripture is not the only place where The Fathers Voice can be heard by the individual.

Jesus makes that clear in his own witness. He was not simply going around knocking on doors claiming to be a witness of Jehovah and quoting scripture.
He was telling his followers that he had a real-time relationship with The Father and one in which they too could have.

Anyway, the Father's voice is loud and clear throughout the Bible,


That is not necessarily the truth of the matter. It is a claim the religious organization you adhere to, makes.
like Jesus said to the Father, "Your Word is truth." (John 17:17) The Scriptures Jesus quoted were all the Father's voice.
Jesus was not referring to scripture when he made that remark.

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