What Jesus Said

[William]

Rule of thumb re scriptural statements about biblical Jesus.

IF;
any such statement contradicts or is otherwise inconsistent with what biblical Jesus stated about himself,
THEN;
regardless that it is 'in the bible', biblical Jesus' statements about himself, take precedence over any other biblical statements about him.

Rule of Thumb = a broadly accurate guide or principle, based on practice rather than theory.

Take Precedence = to be more important (than something else)

Q: Is there any honest reason why Christians and others should not apply this rule of thumb in relation to statements biblical Jesus makes about himself when other biblical statements about Jesus contradict or are otherwise inconsistent with those statements biblical Jesus makes about himself?

[iow]
Are there any honest reasons why Christians [and others] should not apply this rule of thumb in relation to things said in the bible about biblical Jesus, whenever there are contradictions and inconsistencies.

[Examples of such contradictions and inconsistencies will no doubt follow as the thread proceeds. The focus of the thread is specific to what biblical Jesus states about himself and the above rule of thumb.]

[William]

Rule of thumb re scriptural statements about biblical Jesus.

IF;
any such statement contradicts or is otherwise inconsistent with what biblical Jesus stated about himself,
THEN;
regardless that it is 'in the bible', biblical Jesus' statements about himself, take precedence over any other biblical statements about him.

Rule of Thumb = a broadly accurate guide or principle, based on practice rather than theory.

Take Precedence = to be more important (than something else)

Q: Is there any honest reason why Christians and others should not apply this rule of thumb in relation to statements biblical Jesus makes about himself when other biblical statements about Jesus contradict or are otherwise inconsistent with those statements biblical Jesus makes about himself?

[iow]
Are there any honest reasons why Christians [and others] should not apply this rule of thumb in relation to things said in the bible about biblical Jesus, whenever there are contradictions and inconsistencies.

[Examples of such contradictions and inconsistencies will no doubt follow as the thread proceeds. The focus of the thread is specific to what biblical Jesus states about himself and the above rule of thumb.]

If you don't like considering the truth of what Jesus said about himself vs. the truth of what others said about him, then simply accept that:

The thread isn't about what I like or don't like re what Jesus said about himself vs. what others said about him. I don't personally have issue with what the truth is or isn't, re that.

My interest is in uncovering any contradictions between what biblical Jesus is reported to have said about himself in the presence of his followers and what others who wrote about him after he vanished off the face of the Earth had to say about him, and how Christians in general [and others] deal with those contradictions.

If it is your contention that it doesn't matter, as all that was said about Jesus is to be treated with equal suspicion, that is a different subject from the OP, and you are free to pursue it with any interested parties but as you may have figured out by now, I am not one of those interested in going off on that tangent with you, here in this thread.

[Miles]

4. Stay on the topic of debate. If a topic brings up another issue, start another thread.

You're the one who established the "rule of thumb" regarding scriptural statements about biblical Jesus we're suppose to be playing with here..

IF;
any such statement contradicts or is otherwise inconsistent with what biblical Jesus stated about himself,
THEN;
regardless that it is 'in the bible', biblical Jesus' statements about himself, take precedence over any other biblical statements about him.

Then you asked:

"Q: Is there any honest reason why Christians and others should not apply this rule of thumb in relation to statements biblical Jesus makes about himself when other biblical statements about Jesus contradict or are otherwise inconsistent with those statements biblical Jesus makes about himself?"

To which I implied "Yes" there is an honest reason why Christians and others should not apply this rule of thumb when I explained

Although I see no reason why the words of Jesus shouldn't be just as suspect as any other statements in the Bible, and perhaps even more so considering the bias people are prone to indulge themselves in promoting their hero, overall I see it coming out as a wash: what Jesus said about himself taking no more precedence over any other biblical statements about him.

Now obviously you don't like my explanation here and are therefore attempting to dismiss it, but I believe my reasoning is fair and deserves consideration.

But go ahead and dismiss it. Others here have seen it and can decide for themselves if it's on topic or not. I believe it is.

You asked a question

I answered it

You don't like it

I can't see that it matters all that much

.

[William]

4. Stay on the topic of debate. If a topic brings up another issue, start another thread.

You're the one who established the "rule of thumb" regarding scriptural statements about biblical Jesus we're suppose to be playing with here..

IF;
any such statement contradicts or is otherwise inconsistent with what biblical Jesus stated about himself,
THEN;
regardless that it is 'in the bible', biblical Jesus' statements about himself, take precedence over any other biblical statements about him.

Then you asked:

"Q: Is there any honest reason why Christians and others should not apply this rule of thumb in relation to statements biblical Jesus makes about himself when other biblical statements about Jesus contradict or are otherwise inconsistent with those statements biblical Jesus makes about himself?"

To which I implied "Yes" there is an honest reason why Christians and others should not apply this rule of thumb when I explained

Although I see no reason why the words of Jesus shouldn't be just as suspect as any other statements in the Bible, and perhaps even more so considering the bias people are prone to indulge themselves in promoting their hero, overall I see it coming out as a wash: what Jesus said about himself taking no more precedence over any other biblical statements about him.

Now obviously you don't like my explanation here and are therefore attempting to dismiss it, but I believe my reasoning is fair and deserves consideration.

But go ahead and dismiss it. Others here have seen it and can decide for themselves if it's on topic or not. I believe it is.

You asked a question

I answered it

You don't like it

I can't see that it matters all that much

.

It is not that I don't like your answer. It is that to go down that path with you is a tangent to the intention of the thread question. I have not said that your answer is not relevant to the context you are applying it to. I said it was not relevant to the context the thread topic is applying too.

So in that, I can do as I please about your apparent challenge.

I do not dismiss it. I am simply bored by it.



You are looking for someone to debate this with? Perhaps someone else can fill that role...

...you can even use this thread for the purpose if you want...I don't care.

Anyone?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #2]

Where is it recorded that biblical Jesus stated that all things will be subjected to him?

I quoted it in post #2. Maybe you can go back and look at it. William, Jesus didn't have a problem with letting Paul write about Him. He, Jesus, hand-picked Paul to go and witness about him throughout the earth. Whatever Paul said about Him you can take to the bank.

[William]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #2]

Where is it recorded that biblical Jesus stated that all things will be subjected to him?

I quoted it in post #2. Maybe you can go back and look at it. William, Jesus didn't have a problem with letting Paul write about Him. He, Jesus, hand-picked Paul to go and witness about him throughout the earth. Whatever Paul said about Him you can take to the bank.

So are you saying that biblical Jesus is not recorded as having said anything at all regarding this but others did, so we can 'take their word for it' that Jesus agrees with what others said about him that he never said about himself?

And you back that up by saying that "Whatever Paul said about Jesus you can take to the bank", even that there is no record of Jesus saying that?

Lets face the truth together.

Just because someone claims they represent another, and claims they were 'hand-picked' by that other, does not mean that they are who they claim to be.

On this, re the claim that all things are subject to Jesus, it is a big enough claim that we should expect that claim to be spoken of by Jesus to his followers when he was among them. Therefore there should be record of it in the gospels.
If no such record of the claim was made in the Gospels, it is best to treat such claims as dubious when attached to Jesus by others.

[Purple Knight]

I don't buy the idea that God (or Jesus) can't lie. Or at least, I see it like this:

He can kill a People and it's not genocide. He can kill a person and it's not murder. Why on Earth or in Heaven can't he choose to emit a falsehood and have it not be a lie, especially in the context that lying is wrong?

God is the ultimate morality, and so is Jesus. Such a person would lie if it served morality.

So no, I don't think we should necessarily trust Jesus absolutely.

[William]

Q: Is there any honest reason why Christians and others should not apply this rule of thumb in relation to statements biblical Jesus makes about himself when other biblical statements about Jesus contradict or are otherwise inconsistent with those statements biblical Jesus makes about himself?

I don't buy the idea that God (or Jesus) can't lie. Or at least, I see it like this:

He can kill a People and it's not genocide. He can kill a person and it's not murder. Why on Earth or in Heaven can't he choose to emit a falsehood and have it not be a lie, especially in the context that lying is wrong?

God is the ultimate morality, and so is Jesus. Such a person would lie if it served morality.

So no, I don't think we should necessarily trust Jesus absolutely.

If anything, this would be the next step of examination. "Did Jesus Lie?" - for the time being the focus of the thread is on another question - perhaps a question leading up to that one...but the question is concerned with sorting out the initial as to the rule of thumb re;

Rule of thumb re scriptural statements about biblical Jesus.

IF;
any such statement contradicts or is otherwise inconsistent with what biblical Jesus stated about himself,
THEN;
regardless that it is 'in the bible', biblical Jesus' statements about himself, take precedence over any other biblical statements about him.

In that, while the question is open to be answered by anyone who wants to, it is specific to Christians who have yet to buck up the courage to investigate and at least sort the wheat from the tares in relation to that.

No point in asking Christians to contemplate the question as to whether Jesus lied or not, if they cannot even bring themselves to investigate whether other biblical characters are lying about Jesus in what they say on his behalf, [rather than quote him as if they were witness to hearing his words as he spoke them - as with the Gospels - [aka "god-spells" in certain circles]...]

That is principle why I would like to keep this thread clear of that distraction...but if it can be tied into the main subject, I am happy to discuss it further with you hereabouts.

Or we can take it to the fireside and create another thread with that particular subject in mind..."Did Jesus Lie - and Does It Matter if it were for a good cause." - along those lines?

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to William in post #1]

Just going by what is written in the bible, then as a general rule of thumb (which may mean there could be an exception/s), I can go along with what Christ is recorded as having said about Himself taking precedence over anything others wrote that is contradictory or inconsistent.


I don't think there are any contradictions or inconsistencies with what anyone else wrote about Christ, compared to what He is recorded as having said about Himself, but perhaps I am mistaken if someone wishes to present something.

**

Regarding what onewithhim posted about what Christ said about all things being subject to Him (Paul writing about all things being subject to Christ):

“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Matt 28:18

You call Me Teacher and Lord, and rightly so, because I am. John 13:13

The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. John 3:35

“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. Rev 3:14

And of course Christ told the parable of the sheep and the goats, wherein He is the King who returns, sits upon His throne and separates the sheep from the goats, inviting the sheep in and casting the goats out. Obviously they are all in subjection to Him, the King. (Matt 25:31-46)

And of course He is called Lord, King, Master, Teacher - to whom all authority in heaven and on earth were given.



I'm sure there's more (Christ also said that He was the one being spoken of at Psalm 110:1-2, see Matt 22:42-44), including the prophecies about the Messiah from the prophets such as at Daniel 7:13, 14:

In my vision in the night I continued to watch, and I saw One like the Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into His presence. 14And He was given dominion, glory, and kingship, that the people of every nation and language should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and His kingdom is one that will never be destroyed




Those sound pretty consistent to me. Certainly nothing there that is inconsistent or contradictory.



Peace again to you,

[onewithhim]

I don't buy the idea that God (or Jesus) can't lie. Or at least, I see it like this:

He can kill a People and it's not genocide. He can kill a person and it's not murder. Why on Earth or in Heaven can't he choose to emit a falsehood and have it not be a lie, especially in the context that lying is wrong?

God is the ultimate morality, and so is Jesus. Such a person would lie if it served morality.

So no, I don't think we should necessarily trust Jesus absolutely.

If Jehovah and Jesus are truly good, they would not lie. Why would they go against the fact that "Jehovah hates a lying tongue"? "There are six things that Jehovah hates; Yes, seven things that he detests: Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood..."etc. (Proverbs 6:16,17)

When Jehovah kills people it is for the benefit of good people. He kills only incorrigibly evil people who make life miserable for people who want to do what is right.

[Purple Knight]

If Jehovah and Jesus are truly good, they would not lie.

If you define a lie as evil, no they wouldn't. But something all-powerful can simply tell not-the-truth and have that not be a lie.

If God can kill people and it's not murder, then he can also tell not-the-truth and have it not count as lying.

God has every power. Why does he not possess the power of definition that he could achieve such a feat?

Why would they go against the fact that "Jehovah hates a lying tongue"? "There are six things that Jehovah hates; Yes, seven things that he detests: Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood..."etc. (Proverbs 6:16,17)

This example proves my point somewhat. God is obviously proud, but it's doesn't count as pride when he simply states that he is all, his will is good, and what is against him is evil. He's simply correct.

When Jehovah kills people it is for the benefit of good people. He kills only incorrigibly evil people who make life miserable for people who want to do what is right.

In the same way he might lie to benefit good and harm evil. He would tell the lie that is exemplary of lying for good: "No, Mr. Nazi, there are no Jews in my attic." He's never be in that situation, but if he was, he would.