What Jesus Said

[William]

Rule of thumb re scriptural statements about biblical Jesus.

IF;
any such statement contradicts or is otherwise inconsistent with what biblical Jesus stated about himself,
THEN;
regardless that it is 'in the bible', biblical Jesus' statements about himself, take precedence over any other biblical statements about him.

Rule of Thumb = a broadly accurate guide or principle, based on practice rather than theory.

Take Precedence = to be more important (than something else)

Q: Is there any honest reason why Christians and others should not apply this rule of thumb in relation to statements biblical Jesus makes about himself when other biblical statements about Jesus contradict or are otherwise inconsistent with those statements biblical Jesus makes about himself?

[iow]
Are there any honest reasons why Christians [and others] should not apply this rule of thumb in relation to things said in the bible about biblical Jesus, whenever there are contradictions and inconsistencies.

[Examples of such contradictions and inconsistencies will no doubt follow as the thread proceeds. The focus of the thread is specific to what biblical Jesus states about himself and the above rule of thumb.]

[tam]

Peace again to you (and please see also the previous post, bottom of previous page),

Just to clear up some possible confusion, here are other versions of the Daniel 7:14 verse. I had quoted from the NIV (which contains the word 'worship'), but the NIV can sometimes take liberties.

And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed. ESV

He was given authority, honor, and sovereignty over all the nations of the world, so that people of every race and nation and language would obey him. His rule is eternal—it will never end. His kingdom will never be destroyed. NLT

And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. KJV

“And to Him was given dominion, Honor, and a kingdom, So that all the peoples, nations, and populations of all languages Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed. NASB

And to him is given dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, and all peoples, nations, and languages do serve him, his dominion is a dominion age-during, that passeth not away, and his kingdom that which is not destroyed. Young's literal

The NIV appears to be the only version that has the word 'worship' in it. I apologize if that made you think I was making a claim about worship.



Peace again to you.

[Miles]

Peace again to you (and please see also the previous post, bottom of previous page),

Just to clear up some possible confusion, here are other versions of the Daniel 7:14 verse. I had quoted from the NIV (which contains the word 'worship'), but the NIV can sometimes take liberties.

And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed. ESV

He was given authority, honor, and sovereignty over all the nations of the world, so that people of every race and nation and language would obey him. His rule is eternal—it will never end. His kingdom will never be destroyed. NLT

And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. KJV

“And to Him was given dominion, Honor, and a kingdom, So that all the peoples, nations, and populations of all languages Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed. NASB

And to him is given dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, and all peoples, nations, and languages do serve him, his dominion is a dominion age-during, that passeth not away, and his kingdom that which is not destroyed. Young's literal

The NIV appears to be the only version that has the word 'worship' in it. I apologize if that made you think I was making a claim about worship.

Just to clear things up a bit further; of the 54 Bibles I looked at "worship" occurs in 2 versions, the AMP and the EHV. "Worshiped" occurs in 3 versions, the NIRV, NIV, and NIVUK, all of which (5 in total) account for 9.2 % of the 54. The rest use "obey" (3.4%); "serve and worship," and "become his servants" (1.85% each); and "serve(ing)" (85%)


.

[William]

[Replying to William in post #29]

I quoted the verse from Daniel to show that Christ was given that authority from/by His Father, the Father being the HIGHEST authority (so as to be able to give someone else authority to begin with). That is all.

That was the claim being discussed, correct? Christ having been given all authority, all things in subjection to Him, except of course His Father (the one who gave him authority).


Peace again to you.

any claims can be discussed re rule of thumb. A claim was made in another thread re all things being subject to Jesus. As can be noted, we agree the statement is incorrect as Jesus apparently never made the claim or meant it to be be taken literally.

[William]

[Replying to William in post #29]

I quoted the verse from Daniel to show that Christ was given that authority from/by His Father, the Father being the HIGHEST authority (so as to be able to give someone else authority to begin with). That is all.

That was the claim being discussed, correct? Christ having been given all authority, all things in subjection to Him, except of course His Father (the one who gave him authority).


Peace again to you.

Re the rule of thumb, what I asked was whether Jesus worships The Father. We have established that when he said "all things" he was not being literal.

Now we are looking into the claim that Jesus is to be worshipped as The image of The Father.

[tam]

Peace to you William,

[Replying to William in post #29]

I quoted the verse from Daniel to show that Christ was given that authority from/by His Father, the Father being the HIGHEST authority (so as to be able to give someone else authority to begin with). That is all.

That was the claim being discussed, correct? Christ having been given all authority, all things in subjection to Him, except of course His Father (the one who gave him authority).


Peace again to you.

any claims can be discussed re rule of thumb.

Sure, but the claim BEING discussed was about the authority Christ has received, and about all things being in subjection to Him.

A claim was made in another thread re all things being subject to Jesus. As can be noted, we agree the statement is incorrect

All things are subject to Christ... this of course does not include the Father who gave Christ that authority to begin with. This is stated clearly in the quote that was being referenced in Corinthians. Therefore, the quote from Paul to the Corinthians is not in conflict or inconsistent with anything Christ taught.

as Jesus apparently never made the claim or meant it to be be taken literally.

The rule of thumb in your OP states that if claims from others about Him are in conflict with or inconsistent with what Christ has said about Himself, then His words take precedence. What Paul said about all things being in subjection to Christ is not inconsistent or in conflict with what Christ said. Paul made the caveat that this would not include the Father.

Therefore, these words are consistent with what Christ DID say, that all authority in heaven and on earth had been given to Him, that He is the ruler of God's creation (you may not accept that, but it is consistent with all authority in heaven and on earth being given to Him), and of course the verse from Daniel 7, which Christ referenced as pertaining to Himself. And all the rest that were brought out earlier.

The Father loves the Son and has placed all things in His hands.



What is there to argue against in all that, regarding the OP rule of thumb?



Peace again to you.

[bjs1]

[Replying to William in post #1]

For better or worse, Christianity has always claimed to be built on the teachings of the Apostles. We don’t say, “Teachings of Jesus” because we don’t have any written words from Jesus. We only have what the Apostles taught about Jesus.

Either the Bible is inspired, so that the words about Jesus are just as important as the words attributed to Jesus. Or the Bible is not inspired, and you can pretty much pick whatever you want.

I will say that picking the words attributed to Jesus above the rest of the NT would likely give a lopsided view of Jesus. These documents were not written or chosen in a vacuum. They influence each other. They balance each other. A holistic view of Jesus requires reading all of the NT.

Worse yet, I can imagine someone reading the Gospel according John and taking the words attributed to Jesus (which were written by John) as more important than the words about Jesus (which were also written by John).

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #35]

All things are subject to Christ... this of course does not include the Father who gave Christ that authority to begin with. This is stated clearly in the quote that was being referenced in Corinthians.

I don't see that quote.

Therefore, the quote from Paul to the Corinthians is not in conflict or inconsistent with anything Christ taught.

Perhaps. But that was not my argument. I did not say that Paul in this instance was in conflict with Jesus.

My point is that rule of thumb applies.

Perhaps those Paul was teaching were like Paul and did not know Jesus personally in the same way that those who wrote the Gospels did. Paul had a mystic experience and not just the one.
Generally those who have mystical experiences are regarded as deluded, although whether this is a scientific fact or simply popular belief, is unknown.

Paul was teaching others according to the nature of his particular experiences. He did not have access to the Gospels at the time, but the underlying agreement between those who do have such access, is the rule of thumb applies when it does.

That is specifically why the OP ends with the words;

[Examples of such contradictions and inconsistencies will no doubt follow as the thread proceeds. The focus of the thread is specific to what biblical Jesus states about himself and the above rule of thumb.]

[William]

[Replying to William in post #1]

For better or worse, Christianity has always claimed to be built on the teachings of the Apostles. We don’t say, “Teachings of Jesus” because we don’t have any written words from Jesus. We only have what the Apostles taught about Jesus.

Are you arguing that you do not agree with the rule of thumb?
This in itself is problematic and requires the rule of thumb as a device in which to sort the wheat from the tares

Either the Bible is inspired, so that the words about Jesus are just as important as the words attributed to Jesus. Or the Bible is not inspired, and you can pretty much pick whatever you want.

I do not think it is a clear-cut simple as that. If we examine what Jesus says about the NT bible in the Gospels, we see nothing. However, when we examine what Jesus says about himself, we see something.
So we have a definite something which also happens to claim he is The Word of The Father who sent him.
Rule of thumb must apply here. Some authors claim that all scripture is inspired by God. This may not be the same thing as Jesus claimed.

I will say that picking the words attributed to Jesus above the rest of the NT would likely give a lopsided view of Jesus.

I will say that it is equally plausible - perhaps even more so - that the Image of Jesus was made lopsided by the addition works where claims as to what Jesus said about himself, conflict in any way with claims others said about him.

These documents were not written or chosen in a vacuum. They influence each other. They balance each other. A holistic view of Jesus requires reading all of the NT.

Only if there is no conflict between what Jesus said of himself and what others in the OT said of him. Otherwise one has no choice but to examine the discrepancies and therefore use the right tool for the job.

Worse yet, I can imagine someone reading the Gospel according John and taking the words attributed to Jesus (which were written by John) as more important than the words about Jesus (which were also written by John).

Whereas, I do not see that as a bad thing, given the circumstances.

Jesus himself had this to say about it, to Thomas;

"Because you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen, and have believed."

John also wrote that.

What do you think is more important therein. That Jesus was talking to Thomas, or that what Jesus had to say applies to everyone who have believed the words Jesus spoke?

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #35]

All things are subject to Christ... this of course does not include the Father who gave Christ that authority to begin with. This is stated clearly in the quote that was being referenced in Corinthians.

I don't see that quote.

It is the very quote that owh posted in the very first response on this thread. The claim that you questioned, but that has been shown NOT to be in conflict or inconsistent with anything Christ said about Himself.

Therefore, the quote from Paul to the Corinthians is not in conflict or inconsistent with anything Christ taught.

Perhaps. But that was not my argument. I did not say that Paul in this instance was in conflict with Jesus. My point is that rule of thumb applies.

And according to that 'rule of thumb', there has been no conflict presented, and therefore there should be no argument.

Perhaps those Paul was teaching were like Paul and did not know Jesus personally in the same way that those who wrote the Gospels did. Paul had a mystic experience and not just the one.
Generally those who have mystical experiences are regarded as deluded, although whether this is a scientific fact or simply popular belief, is unknown.

Paul was teaching others according to the nature of his particular experiences. He did not have access to the Gospels at the time, but the underlying agreement between those who do have such access, is the rule of thumb applies when it does.

Regardless of what people think, the quote from Paul that was presented in this thread is not in conflict or inconsistent with what Christ said. So there is no argument. Correct?




Peace again to you.

[William]

Peace again to you (and please see also the previous post, bottom of previous page),

Just to clear up some possible confusion, here are other versions of the Daniel 7:14 verse. I had quoted from the NIV (which contains the word 'worship'), but the NIV can sometimes take liberties.

And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed. ESV

He was given authority, honor, and sovereignty over all the nations of the world, so that people of every race and nation and language would obey him. His rule is eternal—it will never end. His kingdom will never be destroyed. NLT

And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. KJV

“And to Him was given dominion, Honor, and a kingdom, So that all the peoples, nations, and populations of all languages Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed. NASB

And to him is given dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, and all peoples, nations, and languages do serve him, his dominion is a dominion age-during, that passeth not away, and his kingdom that which is not destroyed. Young's literal

The NIV appears to be the only version that has the word 'worship' in it. I apologize if that made you think I was making a claim about worship.

Just to clear things up a bit further; of the 54 Bibles I looked at "worship" occurs in 2 versions, the AMP and the EHV. "Worshiped" occurs in 3 versions, the NIRV, NIV, and NIVUK, all of which (5 in total) account for 9.2 % of the 54. The rest use "obey" (3.4%); "serve and worship," and "become his servants" (1.85% each); and "serve(ing)" (85%)


.

Is it to be understood therefore, that the act of 'worship' amounts to being the same thing as the act of obedience?