Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

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Eloi
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Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #1

Post by Eloi »

We, Jehovah's Witnesses, consider that Jesus is also the Archangel Michael. It is not just our belief, as many biblical scholars of other religious denominations have considered the matter in the same way.

Can this idea be demonstrated with the Bible? If that is not the case, the idea will not even be part of the Jehovah's Witness body of doctrines. In no way would we consider as belief something that did not have sufficient biblical support.

I would like to talk about that matter on this topic, as there is a lot of information that I would like to share about it. The subject of debate is: can it be demonstrated with the Bible that Jesus is the Archangel Michael? My answer is that you can do that, and in passing the topic I will try to prove it.

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #61

Post by Sheila D »

[Replying to Eloi in post #1]

I have heard throughout the years _ there were teachings that Michael the archangel and Jesus were the same entity. I never was sure whether it was Jehovah witnesses or the Mormons.
I wondered why, you see I never heard why this was their way of thinking.
It dawned on me this may be base from Daniel chapter 12 when Michael stood up for Jerusalem and he was called there Prince. Plus in the book of Revelations Michael and his angels fought against the devil and his angels. And there is the scripture the Lord of hosts who is mighty in battle.
I can understand why this is sumption was made - but there are far too many scriptures that identifies Christ as being Yahweh - God in the Old Testament and when he was born in the flesh he was given the name Yeshua /Jesus called the begotten Son of God as well as the Son of Man.

http://bugman123.com/Bible/JesusIsGod.html


When you read scripture you will find there was an angelic "Prince of Persia" as written and Daniel, that hindered the angel from coming to Daniel and there was no one to help him but Michael 10:13 - and Michael is considered one of the chief princes - meaning there are many princes in heaven. Satan is also called The "Prince of this world" John 16:11

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #62

Post by Revelations won »

Dear Sheila D,

I quote from your reply to Eloi:

"
I have heard throughout the years _ there were teachings that Michael the archangel and Jesus were the same entity. I never was sure whether it was Jehovah witnesses or the Mormons.
I wondered why, you see I never heard why this was their way of thinking.

My response:

Your above doctrinal statement is clearly attributed to the JW's.

For your information, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has never taught this above doctrine.


It dawned on me this may be base from Daniel chapter 12 when Michael stood up for Jerusalem and he was called there Prince. Plus in the book of Revelations Michael and his angels fought against the devil and his angels. And there is the scripture the Lord of hosts who is mighty in battle.
I can understand why this is sumption was made - but there are far too many scriptures that identifies Christ as being Yahweh - God in the Old Testament and when he was born in the flesh he was given the name Yeshua /Jesus called the begotten Son of God as well as the Son of Man.

Mr response:

As you may observe in my topic "Jehovah and Jesus Christ are one and the same person." I completely agree with you on this point.



http://bugman123.com/Bible/JesusIsGod.html


When you read scripture you will find there was an angelic "Prince of Persia" as written and Daniel, that hindered the angel from coming to Daniel and there was no one to help him but Michael 10:13 - and Michael is considered one of the chief princes - meaning there are many princes in heaven. Satan is also called The "Prince of this world" John 16:11"

Kind regards,
RW

P.S. Welcome aboard!

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #63

Post by onewithhim »

Sheila D wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 1:15 pm [Replying to Eloi in post #1]

I have heard throughout the years _ there were teachings that Michael the archangel and Jesus were the same entity. I never was sure whether it was Jehovah witnesses or the Mormons.
I wondered why, you see I never heard why this was their way of thinking.
It dawned on me this may be base from Daniel chapter 12 when Michael stood up for Jerusalem and he was called there Prince. Plus in the book of Revelations Michael and his angels fought against the devil and his angels. And there is the scripture the Lord of hosts who is mighty in battle.
I can understand why this is sumption was made - but there are far too many scriptures that identifies Christ as being Yahweh - God in the Old Testament and when he was born in the flesh he was given the name Yeshua /Jesus called the begotten Son of God as well as the Son of Man.

http://bugman123.com/Bible/JesusIsGod.html


When you read scripture you will find there was an angelic "Prince of Persia" as written and Daniel, that hindered the angel from coming to Daniel and there was no one to help him but Michael 10:13 - and Michael is considered one of the chief princes - meaning there are many princes in heaven. Satan is also called The "Prince of this world" John 16:11
You say that Jesus is identified as Yahweh (Jehovah) in the Old Testament. This is not true. Would you please show scriptures that you think say this? I am curious to know how you got that idea.

Concerning Michael......if he stands up for his people at the time of the Great Tribulation, as it says at Daniel 12:1 and 2, then why is he not mentioned in the Gospels? Where is he when Jesus describes what happens when the Great Tribulation breaks out in Matthew chapter 24 for example? Jesus doesn't mention Michael at all. Perhaps because Jesus is speaking of himself as standing up for his people, and Michael is just his name when he is in heaven. If Michael is so important that he is mentioned as standing up for his people, in Daniel, and the Great Tribulation starts around the time that he does stand up, then he should be mentioned by Jesus in Matthew, shouldn't he? Michael should be that important to mention, for he is doing the same thing that Jesus says he will do when the Great Tribulation hits.

Michael is considered THE chief prince in Daniel, according to several Bible translators......not just one of the princes. Look it up in the Literal Standard Version and Young's Literal Translation. They say that Michael is "FIRST of the chief heads." That means he is over and above all of the angels.

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #64

Post by Sheila D »

I am fully aware that Michael is one of the chief princes - so I don't need to look up who Michael - or Gabriel or Rafael or any of the other angels called by name. And I'll add Michael is only mentioned in the Old Testament once or twice TOO.
Michael mentioned in the New testament https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=KJV
And in Revelation
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=KJV

Old testament scriptures identifying Jesus being God
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Isaiah-9-6/
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Isaiah-7-14/
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=KJV
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=KJV

New Testiment
Revelation 1:17-8 & 22:13-16 Jesus is identified as the first and the last the alpha and Omega as written in the book of Isaiah
John 1:13 & 1:14 identifies Jesus as being the Word of God with God and God and the world was created by him
John 8:58 Jesus said before Abraham was I Am _ I Am is the English translation of Yahweh.
John 10:30-33 the Pharisees and Sadducees wanted to Stone Jesus because he identified himself as God
John 20:28 Thomas said my Lord and my God
John 14:9-11 Jesus speaking to a disciple referring to him not knowing who Jesus is.
https://www.openbible.info/topics/jesus_is_god

Jesus said NO MAN HAS SEEN THE FATHER BUT THE SON _ the Father is spirit and you must serve him in spirit and in truth.
Who did Adam Eve and their offspring see?
Who did Enoch walk and talk to?
Who did Noah and his family see?
Who did Abraham see?
Who did Isaac and his sons see?
Who did Moses see?
Who did the prophets see?
Who did David see?
They didn't see God the Father because he is spirit and no man has seen him.

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #65

Post by onewithhim »

Sheila D wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 9:19 am I am fully aware that Michael is one of the chief princes - so I don't need to look up who Michael - or Gabriel or Rafael or any of the other angels called by name. And I'll add Michael is only mentioned in the Old Testament once or twice TOO.
Michael mentioned in the New testament https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=KJV
And in Revelation
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=KJV
There is ONE archangel, and that is Michael. Rafael isn't mentioned at all. Gabriel is an angel but not an archangel. There is no problem with Michael being mentioned just twice in the OT and twice in the NT. So what? He is mentioned at Daniel 12:1 and is said to "stand up" for his people right around the time that the Great Tribulation starts. Now Jesus spoke of being present ("standing up") when the Great Tribulation starts, coming to bring relief to his people. Wait a minute.....where is Michael mentioned with Jesus' coming? If Michael was a separate person, wouldn't Jesus speak of him in all that he said in Matthew chapter 24? Why didn't he? It's not hard to figure out. Read the entire account in Matthew 24 and look for Michael. If he was so important he should've gotten a mention! Read Daniel 12:1,2 again. Can you see the association of Michael with Jesus? They were said to do the same things.

Now, all your scriptures that supposedly show that Jesus is God have been discussed many times before. None of them really show that he is God, as many of the verses have been mistranslated and corrupted. Please go back and read the posts from the beginning of this thread. It's all there.

"I Am" is not the English translation of "Jehovah." Exodus 3:14 and 3:15 show different words for "I Am" and "Jehovah." In fact, "I Am" is not how many translators render Exodus 3:14, but "I Will Be Whatsoever I Will Be." So did Jesus say at John 8:58, "Before Abraham was, I Will"?? You can see the sloppiness of the translation. What Jesus said was, "I existed before Abraham was born."

Keep studying and researching and comparing. An Interlinear Version is helpful.

.

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #66

Post by Sheila D »

[Replying to onewithhim in post #65]

I never said Gabriel or Rafael was an archangel.
There are other Hebrew manuscripts such as too he Dead Sea scrolls and even the Apocrypha which was originally in the Bible and taken out. There are names of many angels in these books.

These three are mentioned in the KJV Bible

https://www.holyart.com/blog/saints-and ... -function/
Some believe that there are 7 archangels, while others believe there are at least 20. In scripture there is one named as an archangel and that is Michael. The angels are innumerable, so there probably is more than one archangel. Just like there are 1-2-3-4-5 Star general, they are all generals, but the one that holds the 5 Stars ranked the highest _ the same principal can be applied to Michael.

https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Archangel

Now if you believe Michael is Jesus that's fine, go right ahead - I seriously doubt one's beliefs concerning Michael will not damn one to hell.

Bye - will not reply again

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #67

Post by onewithhim »

Sheila D wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 7:25 pm [Replying to onewithhim in post #65]

I never said Gabriel or Rafael was an archangel.
There are other Hebrew manuscripts such as too he Dead Sea scrolls and even the Apocrypha which was originally in the Bible and taken out. There are names of many angels in these books.

These three are mentioned in the KJV Bible

https://www.holyart.com/blog/saints-and ... -function/
Some believe that there are 7 archangels, while others believe there are at least 20. In scripture there is one named as an archangel and that is Michael. The angels are innumerable, so there probably is more than one archangel. Just like there are 1-2-3-4-5 Star general, they are all generals, but the one that holds the 5 Stars ranked the highest _ the same principal can be applied to Michael.
Thank you for corroborating things I've said. "In scripture there is ONE named as an archangel and that is Michael." Right. I agree. So why are we arguing?

The thing we should be thinking about is what Jesus is going to do when his Kingdom begins ruling over the earth.

"Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years." (Revelation 20:6)

He will guide all of us who will live on the earth forever to rejuvenate the beautiful planet and build our dream homes, as well as instructing all of the dead who will be raised back to life here on Earth. No more war! No more sickness or suffering! Satisfying work for all. Even dead loved ones brought back to life! What a wonderful world it will be under Jesus' rulership!

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #68

Post by Eloi »

Consider, as I said before, these issues:

1) the highest heavenly authority subordinated to God and over all other angels,

2) the identity of the person responsible for settling matters between Jehovah and Satan,

3) who is in charge of all matters related to God and humanity in general

4) the spiritual Leader over God's people on earth ...

Consider those aspects BEFORE Christ, when Michael was spoken of as the spiritual Prince of God's people, and AFTER Christ, when the risen Jesus is considered as the spiritual Leader of God's people.

Did Jesus replace Michael, or is it the same person in different contexts?

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #69

Post by Checkpoint »

Eloi wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:30 am Consider, as I said before, these issues:

1) the highest heavenly authority subordinated to God and over all other angels,

2) the identity of the person responsible for settling matters between Jehovah and Satan,

3) who is in charge of all matters related to God and humanity in general

4) the spiritual Leader over God's people on earth ...

Consider those aspects BEFORE Christ, when Michael was spoken of as the spiritual Prince of God's people, and AFTER Christ, when the risen Jesus is considered as the spiritual Leader of God's people.

Did Jesus replace Michael, or is it the same person in different contexts?
Jesus did not replace anyone.

Rather, the Logos became flesh; not Michael was made flesh.

As Jesus of Nazareth, the sent one anointed by his Father.

To firstly proclaim the good news that brought the kingdom close to us.

To secondly give himself as a ransom for many, and then act as the one mediator between God and man, from the throne of grace.

Jesus, as the head of the Church, is the spiritual Leader of God's people on earth.

Michael is not Jesus, and was not the Logos.

Jesus is not, and was not, Michael.

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #70

Post by onewithhim »

Checkpoint wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 6:01 pm
Eloi wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:30 am Consider, as I said before, these issues:

1) the highest heavenly authority subordinated to God and over all other angels,

2) the identity of the person responsible for settling matters between Jehovah and Satan,

3) who is in charge of all matters related to God and humanity in general

4) the spiritual Leader over God's people on earth ...

Consider those aspects BEFORE Christ, when Michael was spoken of as the spiritual Prince of God's people, and AFTER Christ, when the risen Jesus is considered as the spiritual Leader of God's people.

Did Jesus replace Michael, or is it the same person in different contexts?
Jesus did not replace anyone.

Rather, the Logos became flesh; not Michael was made flesh.

As Jesus of Nazareth, the sent one anointed by his Father.

To firstly proclaim the good news that brought the kingdom close to us.

To secondly give himself as a ransom for many, and then act as the one mediator between God and man, from the throne of grace.

Jesus, as the head of the Church, is the spiritual Leader of God's people on earth.

Michael is not Jesus, and was not the Logos.

Jesus is not, and was not, Michael.
Then where is Michael in Jesus' explanation of the last days and Jesus "standing up" for his people by coming to give retribution for their suffering? Does he mention Michael? Why not? Daniel does at Daniel 12:1, and says he does the exact thing that Jesus said He will do.

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