Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

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Eloi
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Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #1

Post by Eloi »

We, Jehovah's Witnesses, consider that Jesus is also the Archangel Michael. It is not just our belief, as many biblical scholars of other religious denominations have considered the matter in the same way.

Can this idea be demonstrated with the Bible? If that is not the case, the idea will not even be part of the Jehovah's Witness body of doctrines. In no way would we consider as belief something that did not have sufficient biblical support.

I would like to talk about that matter on this topic, as there is a lot of information that I would like to share about it. The subject of debate is: can it be demonstrated with the Bible that Jesus is the Archangel Michael? My answer is that you can do that, and in passing the topic I will try to prove it.

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #2

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to Eloi in post #1]

According to this: https://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-Mich ... angel.html
they are not the same, as it says:
Jesus is not Michael the archangel. The Bible nowhere identifies Jesus as Michael (or any other angel, for that matter). Hebrews 1:5-8 draws a clear distinction between Jesus and the angels: “For to which of the angels did God ever say, ‘You are my Son; today I have become your Father’? Or again, ‘I will be His Father, and He will be my Son’? And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says, ‘Let all God’s angels worship Him.’ In speaking of the angels He says, ‘He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire.’ But about the Son He says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” The hierarchy of heavenly beings is made clear in this passage—angels worship Jesus who, as God, is alone worthy of worship. No angel is ever worshiped in Scripture; therefore, Jesus (worthy of worship) cannot be Michael or any other angel (not worthy of worship). The angels are called sons of God (Genesis 6:2-4; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7), but Jesus is THE Son of God (Hebrews 1:8; Matthew 4:3-6).

Michael the archangel is perhaps the highest of all the angels. Michael is the only angel in the Bible who is designated “the archangel” (Jude verse 9). Michael the archangel, though, is only an angel. He is not God. The clear distinction in the power and authority of Michael and Jesus can be seen in comparing Matthew 4:10 where Jesus rebukes Satan, and Jude verse 9, where Michael the archangel “dared not bring a judgment of blasphemy” against Satan and calls on the Lord to rebuke him. Jesus is God incarnate (John 1:1, 14). Michael the archangel is a powerful angel, but still only an angel.

I'd be interested in seeing proof one way or the other! Should be an interesting discussion.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #3

Post by Miles »

.


From: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=38689&p=1052516&hi ... l#p1052516

onewithhim wrote: Him being "Michael" perfectly lines up with that reasoning, and the fact that Daniel 12:1 states that "the great prince" will, during the time of the end, "stand up in behalf of his people."
In that case Jesus would have to have been an angel (Michael was an angel). Anything in the bible saying Jesus was an angel? Nope. In fact, Hebrews 1:7-8 makes a clear distinction between the two:

Hebrews 1:7-8
7 He said this about the angels, “He makes His angels to be winds. He makes His servants a burning fire.” 8 But about His Son, He says, “O God, Your throne will last forever. Whatever You say in Your nation is right and good.



Moreover, we have this from Don Stewart in the Blue Letter Bible


The Bible contrasts the character of angels and that of the Lord Jesus.

A More Excellent Name

Jesus has a more excellent name than the angels.

having become as much superior to angels as the name He has inherited is more excellent than theirs (Hebrews 1:4).


There is a clear distinction between Jesus and the angels. The word "name" in this context has to do with character. For example, the angels named in Scripture are Michael "who is like God?" and Gabriel "God is my strength." Yet Jesus has a more excellent name than them in the sense that He is the Lord God Himself.

Christ Superior To Angels


In a long passage (Hebrews 1:5-2:9) the writer emphasizes Christ as superior to the angels in every respect. For a short time, when He became a man,
Jesus was made a little lower than the angels. However, He is, in every way, superior to them.

Angels Worshipped Him

Christ was superior to the angels in the fact that they worshipped Him.

And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says, "And let all the angels of God worship Him" (Hebrews 1:6).

Creator And Created

Thus we see the contrast between the Creator and the created since Scripture teaches that Jesus was the Creator of the angels.

for in Him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers - all things have been created through Him and for Him (Colossians 1:16).

Angels were created above humanity, but they are below Christ - the Creator of all things.

Summary

The Bible does say that Jesus has a more excellent name than the angels. He is distinct from the angels in the fact that He created them. Therefore we have the distinction between the Creator and the created. Consequently Jesus is said to have a more excellent name, or identity, than the angels.
source

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #4

Post by Eloi »

We need some basic information to understand this topic.

The Greek word ἀρχάγγελος is made up of two parts. The first part is ἀρχ- which means Chief, Leader or Principal. The second part is "angel". The term alludes, therefore, to the Principal of an Army of angels.

We must bear in mind that although some religions have taught that there are several archangels, in the Bible in reality ONLY Michael is mentioned as such; in Jude 9 he is mentioned as "Michael the archangel" ... meaning he is the only one; and that would be logical, since the Heavenly Army of Angels should have only one at the head.

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #5

Post by Eloi »

There are two questions from where to start:

1) What does the Bible specify about Michael?

2) And what is said in the Bible about the title "archangel"?

In the Scriptures Michael (the archangel) is mentioned four times, and three of them are in the book of Daniel; the last time is in the letter of Jude, the half-brother of Jesus. The tittle "Archangel" is mentioned twice only in the NT, and one of them, in Jude (mentioned before), is associated directly with Michael.

Dan. 10:13 calls Michael "one of the foremost princes".

Dan. 10:21 calls Michael "your prince", meaning the prince of the people of Daniel, Jehovah's worshippers at that time: israelites.

Dan. 12:1 calls Michael "the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people", again about the people Daniel belong to.

Jude 9 calls Michael "the Archangel" and he takes us to an event related to the archangel Michael at the time when Moses died and only the spirits could decide on his corpse. ... while in 1 Thess. 4:16 Paul says that Jesus, in his coming "will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice", associating the voice of Jesus on that future event with the Archangel's voice or sound.

This is roughly all the factual information that Scripture contains about Michael, the archangel. However, from those few texts we can deduce several things that are implied in their content. If we must decide whether Michael identifies as Jesus himself, we should compare everything said about one and the other on the same issues, like:

a) the highest heavenly authority subordinated to God and over all other angels,
b) the identity of the person responsible for settling matters between Jehovah and Satan,
c) who is in charge of all matters related to God and humanity in general
d) the spiritual Leader over God's people on earth ...

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #6

Post by Miles »

Eloi wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:28 am There are two questions from where to start:

1) What does the Bible specify about Michael?

2) And what is said in the Bible about the title "archangel"?

In the Scriptures Michael (the archangel) is mentioned four times, and three of them are in the book of Daniel; the last time is in the letter of Jude, the half-brother of Jesus. The tittle "Archangel" is mentioned twice only in the NT, and one of them, in Jude (mentioned before), is associated directly with Michael.

Dan. 10:13 calls Michael "one of the foremost princes".
Boy, the Bible I'm reading doesn't call him a prince at all, but a leader.

Dan. 10:13
For twenty-one days the leader of the Persian kingdom blocked my way. But then Michael, one of the highest leaders, came to help me. I left Michael there with the leader of the Persian kingdom.

Dan. 10:21 calls Michael "your prince", meaning the prince of the people of Daniel, Jehovah's worshippers at that time: israelites.
Again, not a "your prince," but a "your leader."

Dan. 10:21
But I will tell you what is written in the Scroll of Truth. No one stands strong with me against these leaders except your leader Michael.


Dan. 12:1 calls Michael "the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people", again about the people Daniel belong to.
And again, not "great prince," but great leader."

Dan. 12:1
“At that time, Michael the great leader who guards your people will take his stand. It will be a difficult time—nothing like it has ever happened since nations first appeared. But at that time every one of your people who is found written in the scroll will be rescued.


And within these verses other Bibles call him a "guardian angel," "highest leader," "chief officer," "chief commander," "top officer," and "chief head."

Jude 9 calls Michael "the Archangel" and he takes us to an event related to the archangel Michael at the time when Moses died and only the spirits could decide on his corpse. ... while in Thess. 4:16 Paul says that Jesus, in his coming "will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice", associating the voice of Jesus on that future event with the Archangel's voice or sound.
Actually, in Thess. 4:16 Paul makes a distinction between Jesus and the caller/shouter

Thess. 4:16
16 This is because the Lord himself will come down from heaven with the signal of a shout by the head angel and a blast on God’s trumpet. First, those who are dead in Christ will rise.

If it was Jesus who did all this calling/shouting the writer of Thessalonians wouldn't have bothered with identifying it as "a shout by the head angel." The phrase would have been superfluous.

This is roughly all the factual information that Scripture contains about Michael, the archangel. However, from those few texts we can deduce several things that are implied in their content. If we must decide whether Michael identifies as Jesus himself, we should compare everything said about one and the other on the same issues, like:
Just to note, Michael doesn't identify himself with anyone. Daniel and Paul make the identifications.



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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #7

Post by tam »

Peace to you,

Some of this is addressed in your previous thread here:

viewtopic.php?p=1053276#p1053276

viewtopic.php?p=1053792#p1053792

There is also another thread on the subject from a different poster, and you (and the reader) might find that useful. I will link to my first post on the thread, but there is an entire discussion (everything that you just posted about has been addressed on that thread, in that post):

viewtopic.php?p=1017520#p1017520

So just a quick comment here (regarding grammar):
Eloi wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:29 am
We must bear in mind that although some religions have taught that there are several archangels, in the Bible in reality ONLY Michael is mentioned as such; in Jude 9 he is mentioned as "Michael the archangel" ... meaning he is the only one; and that would be logical, since the Heavenly Army of Angels should have only one at the head.
Saying "Michael the archangel" does not mean that there is only one archangel.

Just as saying "Gabriel the angel', would not mean that there is only one angel.


In fact, in your next post on this thread you post something that shows there is indeed more than one archangel:
Dan. 10:13 calls Michael "one of the foremost princes".
One of the foremost princes (plural) means that there is more than one foremost prince.

Michael is one of the foremost princes (or one of the chief princes).

But Christ is the Prince OF princes.



Peace again to you.

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #8

Post by Checkpoint »

Eloi wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:25 pm We, Jehovah's Witnesses, consider that Jesus is also the Archangel Michael. It is not just our belief, as many biblical scholars of other religious denominations have considered the matter in the same way.

Can this idea be demonstrated with the Bible? If that is not the case, the idea will not even be part of the Jehovah's Witness body of doctrines. In no way would we consider as belief something that did not have sufficient biblical support.

I would like to talk about that matter on this topic, as there is a lot of information that I would like to share about it. The subject of debate is: can it be demonstrated with the Bible that Jesus is the Archangel Michael? My answer is that you can do that, and in passing the topic I will try to prove it.
Well, you can try, and try again. The fact is, surely, that no one can prove one person in the Bible is also, or is or was actually, someone else.

Michael is not, and was not, Jesus. Jesus was not, and is not, Michael.

Michael is an archangel.

Jesus is the Son of God, who told us, "This is My Beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased". Jesus of Nazareth was the Anointed Son of Man. He is also the son of David that was crucified, rose from the dead, and sat down at the right hand of God.

Jesus was and is unique.

There is no comparison. There should be no confusion.

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #9

Post by onewithhim »

Miles wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:46 pm
Eloi wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:28 am There are two questions from where to start:

1) What does the Bible specify about Michael?

2) And what is said in the Bible about the title "archangel"?

In the Scriptures Michael (the archangel) is mentioned four times, and three of them are in the book of Daniel; the last time is in the letter of Jude, the half-brother of Jesus. The tittle "Archangel" is mentioned twice only in the NT, and one of them, in Jude (mentioned before), is associated directly with Michael.

Dan. 10:13 calls Michael "one of the foremost princes".
Boy, the Bible I'm reading doesn't call him a prince at all, but a leader.
Well, my King James version uses the term "prince."

In the end times, or, last days, when the Great Tribulation occurs, "Michael shall stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Daniel 12:1,2, KJV)

This describes the Great Tribulation and events thereafter that Jesus talked about in Matthew chapter 24. I don't see anyone else besides Jesus mentioned in the account in Matthew. He is the only one that the accounts says is coming to rescue his people from this world's oppression and do away with wicked people. There is no mention of anyone else.

So either there are TWO great princes that are going to "stand up" for the people, which doesn't agree with Matthew, or there is just one great prince that mediates for God's people.....the Person that Jesus speaks of---himself. Is there, truly, ANOTHER Person that can mediate between God and the people?

It is logical that there is just one great prince that mediates for the people. That is Jesus Christ who is Michael the Archangel.


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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #10

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:17 pm Peace to you,

Some of this is addressed in your previous thread here:

viewtopic.php?p=1053276#p1053276

viewtopic.php?p=1053792#p1053792

There is also another thread on the subject from a different poster, and you (and the reader) might find that useful. I will link to my first post on the thread, but there is an entire discussion (everything that you just posted about has been addressed on that thread, in that post):

viewtopic.php?p=1017520#p1017520

So just a quick comment here (regarding grammar):
Eloi wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:29 am
We must bear in mind that although some religions have taught that there are several archangels, in the Bible in reality ONLY Michael is mentioned as such; in Jude 9 he is mentioned as "Michael the archangel" ... meaning he is the only one; and that would be logical, since the Heavenly Army of Angels should have only one at the head.
Saying "Michael the archangel" does not mean that there is only one archangel.

Just as saying "Gabriel the angel', would not mean that there is only one angel.
No other angel is ever referred to as an Archangel. Only Michael. So it stands to reason that Michael is the only one.

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