Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

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Eloi
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Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

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Post by Eloi »

We, Jehovah's Witnesses, consider that Jesus is also the Archangel Michael. It is not just our belief, as many biblical scholars of other religious denominations have considered the matter in the same way.

Can this idea be demonstrated with the Bible? If that is not the case, the idea will not even be part of the Jehovah's Witness body of doctrines. In no way would we consider as belief something that did not have sufficient biblical support.

I would like to talk about that matter on this topic, as there is a lot of information that I would like to share about it. The subject of debate is: can it be demonstrated with the Bible that Jesus is the Archangel Michael? My answer is that you can do that, and in passing the topic I will try to prove it.

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #31

Post by tam »

Peace to you,

[Replying to onewithhim in post #30]

Stand up, as in take some form of action. But Michael is not Christ. Christ is the One speaking to Daniel that last time, and He says that Michael is the prince who supports Him (Christ).


At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.


I don't see anything in the meaning of the word that speaks of mediate:


Usage of the word in the bible:
to stand, remain, endure, take one's stand

(Qal)

to stand, take one's stand, be in a standing attitude, stand forth, take a stand, present oneself, attend upon, be or become servant of

to stand still, stop (moving or doing), cease

to tarry, delay, remain, continue, abide, endure, persist, be steadfast

to make a stand, hold one's ground

to stand upright, remain standing, stand up, rise, be erect, be upright

to arise, appear, come on the scene, stand forth, appear, rise up or against

to stand with, take one's stand, be appointed, grow flat, grow insipid

(Hiphil)

to station, set

to cause to stand firm, maintain

to cause to stand up, cause to set up, erect

to present (one) before (king)

to appoint, ordain, establish

(Hophal) to be presented, be caused to stand, be stood before


Strong's:
ʻâmad, aw-mad'; a primitive root; to stand, in various relations (literal and figurative, intransitive and transitive):—abide (behind), appoint, arise, cease, confirm, continue, dwell, be employed, endure, establish, leave, make, ordain, be (over), place, (be) present (self), raise up, remain, repair, serve, set (forth, over, -tle, up), (make to, make to be at a, with-) stand (by, fast, firm, still, up), (be at a) stay (up), tarry.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon ... lexResults



Peace again to you!

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #32

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:03 pm Peace to you,

[Replying to onewithhim in post #30]

Stand up, as in take some form of action. But Michael is not Christ. Christ is the One speaking to Daniel that last time, and He says that Michael is the prince who supports Him (Christ).


At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.


I don't see anything in the meaning of the word that speaks of mediate:
I said that it was MY choice to use the word "mediate." My understanding of Michael "standing up" for the people is that he is, as someone said, representing them before God. He is standing in the middle, so to speak. Thus the word "mediate" came to my mind. Michael is standing between the people and God, to lay before God the value of his people before Him. I have seen no one else in the Scriptures that have the right to do this other than Jesus Christ. If you say there is, then you are diminishing the position of Christ and his importance in protecting his people.

.

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #33

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:13 pm
tam wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:03 pm Peace to you,

[Replying to onewithhim in post #30]

Stand up, as in take some form of action. But Michael is not Christ. Christ is the One speaking to Daniel that last time, and He says that Michael is the prince who supports Him (Christ).


At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.


I don't see anything in the meaning of the word that speaks of mediate:
I said that it was MY choice to use the word "mediate." My understanding of Michael "standing up" for the people is that he is, as someone said, representing them before God. He is standing in the middle, so to speak. Thus the word "mediate" came to my mind.


But there is nothing in the meaning of the word being translated as 'stand up', that supports what you are saying.
Michael is standing between the people and God, to lay before God the value of his people before Him.


Where did you get that?

Where is it written that Michael is standing between the people and God (or that he is doing so to lay the value of God's people before Him)?
I have seen no one else in the Scriptures that have the right to do this other than Jesus Christ. If you say there is, then you are diminishing the position of Christ and his importance in protecting his people.
But where is it written that Michael is doing the things that you are saying he is doing?


Peace again to you.

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #34

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:23 pm Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:13 pm
tam wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:03 pm Peace to you,

[Replying to onewithhim in post #30]

Stand up, as in take some form of action. But Michael is not Christ. Christ is the One speaking to Daniel that last time, and He says that Michael is the prince who supports Him (Christ).


At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.


I don't see anything in the meaning of the word that speaks of mediate:
I said that it was MY choice to use the word "mediate." My understanding of Michael "standing up" for the people is that he is, as someone said, representing them before God. He is standing in the middle, so to speak. Thus the word "mediate" came to my mind.


But there is nothing in the meaning of the word being translated as 'stand up', that supports what you are saying.
Michael is standing between the people and God, to lay before God the value of his people before Him.


Where did you get that?

Where is it written that Michael is standing between the people and God (or that he is doing so to lay the value of God's people before Him)?
I have seen no one else in the Scriptures that have the right to do this other than Jesus Christ. If you say there is, then you are diminishing the position of Christ and his importance in protecting his people.
But where is it written that Michael is doing the things that you are saying he is doing?


Peace again to you.
Then what is Michael doing in Daniel 12:1?? What does "stand up" mean to you?

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #35

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to onewithhim in post #30]

The word you used to end your post, "kindness", seems to be rarely expressed these days.

But when you did, it was a pleasant reminder of a beautiful song I love.

So I just want to share it now with you, as one believer to another.

Enjoy!
Very pretty song. I wonder though....how can God love us "no matter what we do" when he is calling us to repent? Why repent if he accepts us no matter what we do?

Well, our God IS love, just as He IS light, holy, Spirit, and a consuming fire. That is who He is("I am who I am"). These are all aspects of His intrinsic nature, expressed in perfect harmony in every situation.

Thus, "God so loved the world that He gave", and why Jesus commanded to "love your enemies".

Yes, His call is always to repentance, but He loves us before we do repent, without accepting what He is waiting for us to repent of.


I also want to say that "mediator" was a term that I used to describe what Jesus is (it is actually attributed to him at I Timothy 2:5) and Michael as well. Michael "stands up" for his people. What else could that mean but that he is mediating in some way for the people---between God and men? I look forward to your comment.
I don't know why you chose the term "mediator" in this context.

But I'll tell you something of what little I know about it. But not as a term I think may be fitting one for my purposes.

Jesus is the only one who could fulfil his current role as the one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

And he first had to complete his anointed calling, to give his life as a ransom for many, and instituted the New Covenant.

Hebrews 9:15
For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
Michael in Daniel 12:1 is not mediating between God and Israel. He is supporting Israel in some way.

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #36

Post by onewithhim »

Checkpoint wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:28 pm [Replying to onewithhim in post #30]

The word you used to end your post, "kindness", seems to be rarely expressed these days.

But when you did, it was a pleasant reminder of a beautiful song I love.

So I just want to share it now with you, as one believer to another.

Enjoy!
Very pretty song. I wonder though....how can God love us "no matter what we do" when he is calling us to repent? Why repent if he accepts us no matter what we do?

Well, our God IS love, just as He IS light, holy, Spirit, and a consuming fire. That is who He is("I am who I am"). These are all aspects of His intrinsic nature, expressed in perfect harmony in every situation.

Thus, "God so loved the world that He gave", and why Jesus commanded to "love your enemies".
Yes, I should have said it this way---how can God accept whatever we do when he calls us to repentance? He doesn't accept what we do "no matter what." He loves everybody but waits for all people to repent so that they won't be destroyed.

"...He is patient with you [all mankind] because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires ALL to attain to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)


.

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #37

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #35]

You wouldn't call "mediating" being "a support"? What exactly is being a support?

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #38

Post by Checkpoint »

onewithhim wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:33 pm [Replying to Checkpoint in post #35]

You wouldn't call "mediating" being "a support"? What exactly is being a support?
No, I wouldn't.

You can answer your own question. Some homework for you.

And while you are at it, you could ask and find answers the same question regarding a mediator.

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #39

Post by onewithhim »

Checkpoint wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:16 am
onewithhim wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:33 pm [Replying to Checkpoint in post #35]

You wouldn't call "mediating" being "a support"? What exactly is being a support?
No, I wouldn't.

You can answer your own question. Some homework for you.

And while you are at it, you could ask and find answers the same question regarding a mediator.
I asked YOU to concisely explain to me what YOU think "support" for the people meant in the scenario in Daniel 12:1. What do YOU think it means that Michael "stands up" for his people? What exactly is he doing by standing up for them?

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #40

Post by Checkpoint »

onewithhim wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:35 am
Checkpoint wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:16 am
onewithhim wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:33 pm [Replying to Checkpoint in post #35]

You wouldn't call "mediating" being "a support"? What exactly is being a support?
No, I wouldn't.

You can answer your own question. Some homework for you.

And while you are at it, you could ask and find answers the same question regarding a mediator.
I asked YOU to concisely explain to me what YOU think "support" for the people meant in the scenario in Daniel 12:1. What do YOU think it means that Michael "stands up" for his people? What exactly is he doing by standing up for them?
Yes, I do realise you asked me what I thought.

I declined because I am no expert, and do have some bias.

It is obvious that you too are no expert, and do have some bias as well.

Hence I suggested this was a little homework for you. That way you have a better chance of actually learning something new, and that from an expert or two.

As a bonus, you may even enjoy the journey.

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