Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

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Eloi
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Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #1

Post by Eloi »

We, Jehovah's Witnesses, consider that Jesus is also the Archangel Michael. It is not just our belief, as many biblical scholars of other religious denominations have considered the matter in the same way.

Can this idea be demonstrated with the Bible? If that is not the case, the idea will not even be part of the Jehovah's Witness body of doctrines. In no way would we consider as belief something that did not have sufficient biblical support.

I would like to talk about that matter on this topic, as there is a lot of information that I would like to share about it. The subject of debate is: can it be demonstrated with the Bible that Jesus is the Archangel Michael? My answer is that you can do that, and in passing the topic I will try to prove it.

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #51

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:26 pm
tam wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:23 pm Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:13 pm
tam wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:03 pm Peace to you,

[Replying to onewithhim in post #30]

Stand up, as in take some form of action. But Michael is not Christ. Christ is the One speaking to Daniel that last time, and He says that Michael is the prince who supports Him (Christ).


At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.


I don't see anything in the meaning of the word that speaks of mediate:
I said that it was MY choice to use the word "mediate." My understanding of Michael "standing up" for the people is that he is, as someone said, representing them before God. He is standing in the middle, so to speak. Thus the word "mediate" came to my mind.


But there is nothing in the meaning of the word being translated as 'stand up', that supports what you are saying.
Michael is standing between the people and God, to lay before God the value of his people before Him.


Where did you get that?

Where is it written that Michael is standing between the people and God (or that he is doing so to lay the value of God's people before Him)?
I have seen no one else in the Scriptures that have the right to do this other than Jesus Christ. If you say there is, then you are diminishing the position of Christ and his importance in protecting his people.
But where is it written that Michael is doing the things that you are saying he is doing?


Peace again to you.
Then what is Michael doing in Daniel 12:1?? What does "stand up" mean to you?
Please note that you did not answer my questions. You made many claims about what you think Michael does, but you did not provide support for those claims.

As for the question you asked me, 'stand up' means to take some form of action. That is what the word means (see previous post: viewtopic.php?p=1055809#p1055809 ) Michael standing up (taking some form of action on behalf of Israel) does not make him the same person as Christ. Michael supports and is loyal to Christ.

Peace again to you.

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #52

Post by onewithhim »

Checkpoint wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:54 pm [Replying to onewithhim in post #49]
It does have significance, and I'm sad that you can't see it. Please just answer my question. It is not going around in circles. If you'd just answer, it would contribute to an interesting discussion.
I agree with the answer you gave to your question about that Matthew 24 passage.
So you agree that there is no other person than Jesus who will "stand up" for his people at the end of the Great Tribulation.....is that correct? Do you see that Michael and Jesus must be the same individual? Do you agree that there is no other person who has that privilege than Jesus?

.

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #53

Post by Checkpoint »

onewithhim wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:36 pm
Checkpoint wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:54 pm [Replying to onewithhim in post #49]
It does have significance, and I'm sad that you can't see it. Please just answer my question. It is not going around in circles. If you'd just answer, it would contribute to an interesting discussion.
I agree with the answer you gave to your question about that Matthew 24 passage.
So you agree that there is no other person than Jesus who will "stand up" for his people at the end of the Great Tribulation.....is that correct? Do you see that Michael and Jesus must be the same individual? Do you agree that there is no other person who has that privilege than Jesus?
What I see, mostly differs from what you see.

I see Michael as an archangel, who can only be himself.

I do not not see Michael and Jesus being the same individual. That is an unbiblical concept that is illogical and confusing.

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #54

Post by onewithhim »

Checkpoint wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:16 am
onewithhim wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:36 pm
Checkpoint wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:54 pm [Replying to onewithhim in post #49]
It does have significance, and I'm sad that you can't see it. Please just answer my question. It is not going around in circles. If you'd just answer, it would contribute to an interesting discussion.
I agree with the answer you gave to your question about that Matthew 24 passage.
So you agree that there is no other person than Jesus who will "stand up" for his people at the end of the Great Tribulation.....is that correct? Do you see that Michael and Jesus must be the same individual? Do you agree that there is no other person who has that privilege than Jesus?
What I see, mostly differs from what you see.

I see Michael as an archangel, who can only be himself.

I do not not see Michael and Jesus being the same individual. That is an unbiblical concept that is illogical and confusing.
It is logical. Michael apparently has the same privileges at Daniel 12:1 that Jesus has in the Christian Greek Scriptures. You cannot show me how those two show up at the same time when the Great Tribulation starts. Your concept is unbiblical. Michael does not stand up for his people, apparently, before the GT starts. No mention of him in the Gospels doing what Jesus is said to do. I have asked you to explain that but you haven't.

It logically stands to reason that Jesus Christ had a name other than "Jesus" before he came to Earth. Have you considered that? He wasn't always "Jesus." He got that name when he was born on Earth. So what was he called in heaven before his sojourn on the earth? Why not "Michael"?


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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #55

Post by Checkpoint »

onewithhim wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 1:29 pm
Checkpoint wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:16 am
onewithhim wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:36 pm
Checkpoint wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:54 pm [Replying to onewithhim in post #49]
It does have significance, and I'm sad that you can't see it. Please just answer my question. It is not going around in circles. If you'd just answer, it would contribute to an interesting discussion.
I agree with the answer you gave to your question about that Matthew 24 passage.
So you agree that there is no other person than Jesus who will "stand up" for his people at the end of the Great Tribulation.....is that correct? Do you see that Michael and Jesus must be the same individual? Do you agree that there is no other person who has that privilege than Jesus?
What I see, mostly differs from what you see.

I see Michael as an archangel, who can only be himself.

I do not not see Michael and Jesus being the same individual. That is an unbiblical concept that is illogical and confusing.
It is logical. Michael apparently has the same privileges at Daniel 12:1 that Jesus has in the Christian Greek Scriptures. You cannot show me how those two show up at the same time when the Great Tribulation starts. Your concept is unbiblical. Michael does not stand up for his people, apparently, before the GT starts. No mention of him in the Gospels doing what Jesus is said to do. I have asked you to explain that but you haven't.

It logically stands to reason that Jesus Christ had a name other than "Jesus" before he came to Earth. Have you considered that? He wasn't always "Jesus." He got that name when he was born on Earth. So what was he called in heaven before his sojourn on the earth? Why not "Michael"?
No Michael in the Gospels because he was not there.

If Jesus had another name before he came to earth, it was not Michael, but the Word, wasn't it?

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #56

Post by onewithhim »

Checkpoint wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:25 am
onewithhim wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 1:29 pm
Checkpoint wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:16 am
onewithhim wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:36 pm
Checkpoint wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:54 pm [Replying to onewithhim in post #49]
It does have significance, and I'm sad that you can't see it. Please just answer my question. It is not going around in circles. If you'd just answer, it would contribute to an interesting discussion.
I agree with the answer you gave to your question about that Matthew 24 passage.
So you agree that there is no other person than Jesus who will "stand up" for his people at the end of the Great Tribulation.....is that correct? Do you see that Michael and Jesus must be the same individual? Do you agree that there is no other person who has that privilege than Jesus?
What I see, mostly differs from what you see.

I see Michael as an archangel, who can only be himself.

I do not not see Michael and Jesus being the same individual. That is an unbiblical concept that is illogical and confusing.
It is logical. Michael apparently has the same privileges at Daniel 12:1 that Jesus has in the Christian Greek Scriptures. You cannot show me how those two show up at the same time when the Great Tribulation starts. Your concept is unbiblical. Michael does not stand up for his people, apparently, before the GT starts. No mention of him in the Gospels doing what Jesus is said to do. I have asked you to explain that but you haven't.

It logically stands to reason that Jesus Christ had a name other than "Jesus" before he came to Earth. Have you considered that? He wasn't always "Jesus." He got that name when he was born on Earth. So what was he called in heaven before his sojourn on the earth? Why not "Michael"?
No Michael in the Gospels because he was not there.

If Jesus had another name before he came to earth, it was not Michael, but the Word, wasn't it?
Michael WOULD be in the Gospels IF he was a person different from Jesus.....that's my point. He "stood up" for his people at Daniel chapter 12. But he is nowhere to be seen in the Gospels. If he was a different person surely he would be mentioned, because in Daniel 12 he has the same eminence that Jesus has in Matthew 24.

("The Word" isn't a name. It's a title.)

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #57

Post by tam »

Peace to you,

Michael is mentioned in the NT, by name. Jude mentions both Christ and Michael. In the very same discussion, Jude refers to Christ and then to Michael. Two names, two persons. As well, both Christ and Michael are mentioned in Revelation, after Christ has ascended. Two names, two persons.



Peace again to you and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #58

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 11:47 am Peace to you,

Michael is mentioned in the NT, by name. Jude mentions both Christ and Michael. In the very same discussion, Jude refers to Christ and then to Michael. Two names, two persons. As well, both Christ and Michael are mentioned in Revelation, after Christ has ascended. Two names, two persons.



Peace again to you and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
What you say has no bearing on the idea that Jesus and Michael are the same. When Jude speaks of Michael, it was BEFORE he was named Jesus that Michael disputed with the Devil, so he would naturally use Christ's name (Michael) when he was in heaven before coming to Earth as Jesus.

When Michael is spoken of in Revelation, it is AFTER Jesus went back to heaven and he cast the Devil out of heaven. The name "Jesus" was for Jesus' earthly sojourn. When back in heaven, he is Michael. Your argument doesn't hold up.

Two names, one person.

.

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #59

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:10 pm
tam wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 11:47 am Peace to you,

Michael is mentioned in the NT, by name. Jude mentions both Christ and Michael. In the very same discussion, Jude refers to Christ and then to Michael. Two names, two persons. As well, both Christ and Michael are mentioned in Revelation, after Christ has ascended. Two names, two persons.



Peace again to you and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
What you say has no bearing on the idea that Jesus and Michael are the same. When Jude speaks of Michael, it was BEFORE he was named Jesus that Michael disputed with the Devil, so he would naturally use Christ's name (Michael) when he was in heaven before coming to Earth as Jesus.

When Michael is spoken of in Revelation, it is AFTER Jesus went back to heaven and he cast the Devil out of heaven. The name "Jesus" was for Jesus' earthly sojourn. When back in heaven, he is Michael. Your argument doesn't hold up.

Two names, one person.

.
Actually that is not true, owh. Christ refers to Himself as Jaheshua (written as "Jesus") while in heaven.

“I, [Jesus], have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.” Rev 22:16


He sent His angel AFTER He had ascended to heaven, and so, He refers to Himself, while in heaven, as Jaheshua. He is still Jaheshua in heaven. He does not refer to Himself (ever) as Michael.



Peace again to you and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
- Non-religious Christian spirituality

- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #60

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:56 pm Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:10 pm
tam wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 11:47 am Peace to you,

Michael is mentioned in the NT, by name. Jude mentions both Christ and Michael. In the very same discussion, Jude refers to Christ and then to Michael. Two names, two persons. As well, both Christ and Michael are mentioned in Revelation, after Christ has ascended. Two names, two persons.



Peace again to you and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
What you say has no bearing on the idea that Jesus and Michael are the same. When Jude speaks of Michael, it was BEFORE he was named Jesus that Michael disputed with the Devil, so he would naturally use Christ's name (Michael) when he was in heaven before coming to Earth as Jesus.

When Michael is spoken of in Revelation, it is AFTER Jesus went back to heaven and he cast the Devil out of heaven. The name "Jesus" was for Jesus' earthly sojourn. When back in heaven, he is Michael. Your argument doesn't hold up.

Two names, one person.

.
Actually that is not true, owh. Christ refers to Himself as Jaheshua (written as "Jesus") while in heaven.

“I, [Jesus], have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.” Rev 22:16


He sent His angel AFTER He had ascended to heaven, and so, He refers to Himself, while in heaven, as Jaheshua. He is still Jaheshua in heaven. He does not refer to Himself (ever) as Michael.



Peace again to you and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
OK, for argument's sake we'll say that Jesus isn't Michael. So tell me, where does Michael fit in with the events in Matthew 24? It says in Daniel that Michael stands up and then there is a Great Tribulation like the world has never seen. Surely he would be mentioned in Matthew 24.

.

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