Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

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Eloi
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Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

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Post by Eloi »

We, Jehovah's Witnesses, consider that Jesus is also the Archangel Michael. It is not just our belief, as many biblical scholars of other religious denominations have considered the matter in the same way.

Can this idea be demonstrated with the Bible? If that is not the case, the idea will not even be part of the Jehovah's Witness body of doctrines. In no way would we consider as belief something that did not have sufficient biblical support.

I would like to talk about that matter on this topic, as there is a lot of information that I would like to share about it. The subject of debate is: can it be demonstrated with the Bible that Jesus is the Archangel Michael? My answer is that you can do that, and in passing the topic I will try to prove it.

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #71

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to onewithhim in post #70]
Then where is Michael in Jesus' explanation of the last days and Jesus "standing up" for his people by coming to give retribution for their suffering? Does he mention Michael? Why not? Daniel does at Daniel 12:1, and says he does the exacSo what, onewithhim?t thing that Jesus said He will do.
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So what, onewithhim?

Michael is not in Jesus explanation, yes.

If he was, there would clearly be two persons, not one same person!

Jesus AND Michael, not Jesus AS Michael, or Michael AS Jesus.

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #72

Post by onewithhim »

Checkpoint wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:45 pm [Replying to onewithhim in post #70]
Then where is Michael in Jesus' explanation of the last days and Jesus "standing up" for his people by coming to give retribution for their suffering? Does he mention Michael? Why not? Daniel does at Daniel 12:1, and says he does the exacSo what, onewithhim?t thing that Jesus said He will do.
Image

So what, onewithhim?

Michael is not in Jesus explanation, yes.

If he was, there would clearly be two persons, not one same person!

Jesus AND Michael, not Jesus AS Michael, or Michael AS Jesus.
That is precisely my point. If Michael and Jesus are separate, then Jesus surely would've mentioned him in Matthew 24, since Michael is said to be a pretty important individual (Daniel 12:1,2). But, as you say, Jesus doesn't mention Michael. You also say that if Jesus did mention him there would be two persons. Jesus doesn't mention him, therefore it is entirely logical that Jesus and Michael are one and the same. Someone of Michael's position cannot be ignored. He is either Jesus Himself or he is part of the scene WITH Jesus in Matthew 24, and we should see some mention of him. Which is it?

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #73

Post by Eloi »

Think about the following: if the Archangel Michael is not Jesus, then he, the archangel, would have a higher position than Jesus himself in heaven, and that would be impossible. Why do I say it?

When Paul talks about Jesus coming to raise the dead, he said that Jesus would come with the voice of archangel. Do you think that if the position of archangel were inferior to the position of Jesus it would be appropriate for Paul to attribute to him "an archangel’s voice" to speak about his power?

1 Thess. 4:16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.

The only reason Paul attributes Jesus "an archangel’s voice " is because the description would be justly appropriate for him, and no one else. Otherwise, another alleged archangel could be competing for his position, which would be a total "scandal".

Therefore, Jesus is the Archangel.

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #74

Post by Checkpoint »

Eloi wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:46 am Think about the following: if the Archangel Michael is not Jesus, then he, the archangel, would have a higher position than Jesus himself in heaven, and that would be impossible. Why do I say it?

When Paul talks about Jesus coming to raise the dead, he said that Jesus would come with the voice of archangel. Do you think that if the position of archangel were inferior to the position of Jesus it would be appropriate for Paul to attribute to him "an archangel’s voice" to speak about his power?

1 Thess. 4:16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.

The only reason Paul attributes Jesus "an archangel’s voice " is because the description would be justly appropriate for him, and no one else. Otherwise, another alleged archangel could be competing for his position, which would be a total "scandal".

Therefore, Jesus is the Archangel.
The subject of debate is: can it be demonstrated with the Bible that Jesus is the Archangel Michael? My answer is that you can do that, and in passing the topic I will try to prove it.
Yes, you and others continue to "try to prove it", on this thread.

As I see it, it is not something that can be proved or disproved.

That is because Scripture does not deal with the issue raised at all. Thus, there is no specific statement anywhere in the Bible that either affirms or denies any claims or conclusions regarding this Michael/Jesus issue.

All we are thus doing on this thread is expressing opinions.

It reminds me of John 21:20-22.

I think Jesus is asking us what he asked Peter then:
"what is that to you? You must follow me.”

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

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Re: Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

Post #76

Post by Eloi »

This is a post I did in another subforum, but I would like to post it here so you can analize the logic inside this reasoning:
Eloi wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:15 pm Dan.10:21 reads:

Dan.10:21 (KJV) But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Where it said "in these things" could be a little confusing, cause there are two acceptable translations of the original phrasing right there. The other translation is shown here:

Dan. 10:21 (ASV) But I will tell thee that which is inscribed in the writing of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me against these, but Michael your prince.

My post is not abou which one of both is the right translation, BUT in the implications of this verse in the doctrine about Michael being Jesus. In both cases the verse support that belief.

1) If the "more exact" translation according to what the inspired writer meant is the one in KJV, that implies that there were NO OTHER spirit creature besides Michael who can understand those things written in the "scriptures of truth".

2) if the other, then that verse implies that NO OTHER spirit creature besides Michael could have been stronger than the angel speaking, against the demonic spiritual forces.

In both cases the verse implies Michael was Jesus before his birth as a human.

In first place, no creature may have had greater knowledge than Jesus in the heavens about any divine writing,

... and secondly, no other than the angel with the name of Jehovah in him, i.e. Jesus himself in his function as Jehovah's angel (Exo. 23:20-23), could have been strong enough to fight and overcome the demonic spiritual forces talked about before in the context of this verse.
The words that this angel said to Daniel there in Dan. 10:21 (in either of the two ways in which it has been translated) show that Michael can be none other than Jesus himself in heaven ... in this case before he was born as a human.

PD: Our Study Bible (2021) says:

Dan. 10:21 However, I will tell you the things recorded in the writings of truth. There is no one strongly supporting me in these things but Miʹcha·el, your prince.

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