A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

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A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

This thread continues from this exchange between Miles and Checkpoint:

Miles wrote:
No more so than the events in the lame promise Jesus made in Matthew 24:

Matthew 24:34
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Sorry, but the crucial qualifier here is, "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." And, of course, the problem here is that the generation did, in fact, pass, and none of the things were fulfilled.
.
Checkpoint wrote:
Quite so, it seems to nearly everyone.

Their problem is their assumption of who Jesus was referring to as comprising "this generation".
Miles wrote:
So, what do you think "this" and "generation" apply to?

I take "this" to mean


this
/T͟His/
pronoun: this; pronoun: these

1. used to identify a specific person or thing close at hand or being indicated or experienced.
source:Oxford Languages


and "generation" to mean


gen·er·a·tion
/ˌjenəˈrāSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: generation; plural noun: generations

1. all of the people born and living at about the same time, regarded collectively.
source:Oxford Languages

So, what do you think "this" and "generation" apply to?
Checkpoint wrote:

They apply to the particular people group he often spoke to, or spoke about. Almost always in a negative manner.
Miles wrote:
But as can be seen from the definition I cited in Oxford Languages this isn't what "generation" means at all. It means:

"All of the people born and living at about the same time, regarded collectively."


Almost always in a negative manner.
Okay.
Last edited by Checkpoint on Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #11

Post by myth-one.com »

Difflugia wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 10:32 am
myth-one.com wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 10:04 amYes, his immediate audience wasn't the twelve dimwits
Have you read Mark?

"Don’t you perceive yet or understand? Is your heart still hardened? Having eyes, don’t you see? Having ears, don’t you hear? Don’t you remember?"—Jesus to the dimwits/disciples (Mark 8:17-18)
I've read Mark numerous times, and you misquoted Mark:

Mark 8 wrote:17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?

18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?
I cannot find your word "dimwits" anywhere in the scriptures.

Are you trying to make some kind of point?

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #12

Post by Difflugia »

myth-one.com wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 12:45 pm
Difflugia wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 10:32 am"Don’t you perceive yet or understand? Is your heart still hardened? Having eyes, don’t you see? Having ears, don’t you hear? Don’t you remember?"—Jesus to the dimwits/disciples (Mark 8:17-18)
I've read Mark numerous times, and you misquoted Mark:

Mark 8 wrote:17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?

18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?
I cannot find your word "dimwits" anywhere in the scriptures.
I quoted the World English Bible. What are you claiming is a misquotation? The "dimwits/disciples" was my own commentary, which should be obvious by where I put the quotation marks.
myth-one.com wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 12:45 pmAre you trying to make some kind of point?
I am indeed. I guess at least one of us should feel burned by your failure to get it, but I'm not sure it's me.

In Mark, the named Twelve are repeatedly cast as rhetorical foils to Jesus' aphorisms and parables. They repeatedly fail to understand the meaning and foreshadowing of Jesus' statements. The other three evangelists rehabilitate the Twelve in various ways, but in Mark, their function in the narrative is most often to misunderstand Jesus, giving him an opportunity to explain what he means to them and therefore to us as readers.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #13

Post by myth-one.com »

Difflugia wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:52 pm In Mark, the named Twelve are repeatedly cast as rhetorical foils to Jesus' aphorisms and parables. They repeatedly fail to understand the meaning and foreshadowing of Jesus' statements. The other three evangelists rehabilitate the Twelve in various ways, but in Mark, their function in the narrative is most often to misunderstand Jesus, giving him an opportunity to explain what he means to them and therefore to us as readers.
The 12 disciples were given to understand the mysteries of the Kingdom of God, which were kept from the general public:
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever have not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. (Matthew 13:10-13)
And Jesus explained all things to the disciples when they were alone with Him.
And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it. But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples. (Mark 4:33-34)
Certainly they knew that the end of times would come after mankind had lived for 6,000 years.

And knowing that fact, the apostles knew that their generation would not be the generation to see the second coming.

To this date, the scriptures are sealed from the understanding of the general public.

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #14

Post by Difflugia »

myth-one.com wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:21 pmThe 12 disciples were given to understand the mysteries of the Kingdom of God, which were kept from the general public:
(Matthew 13:10-13)
How does this support your contention that Mark's Twelve weren't also meant to be dimwits?
myth-one.com wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:21 pmAnd Jesus explained all things to the disciples when they were alone with Him.
They're alone in the setting of the story, but they're also crucially with us, the readers.
myth-one.com wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:21 pm
And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it. But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples. (Mark 4:33-34)
Certainly they knew that the end of times would come after mankind had lived for 6,000 years.
That seems a non sequitur as well as an interesting use of the word "certainly."
myth-one.com wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:21 pmAnd knowing that fact, the apostles knew that their generation would not be the generation to see the second coming.
Which I didn't take issue with here in T&D where harmonization is close to canon. I only took issue with your thus far unsupported claim that the disciple characters weren't written as dimwits.
myth-one.com wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:21 pmTo this date, the scriptures are sealed from the understanding of the general public.
I guess that's always a possibility.
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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #15

Post by myth-one.com »

myth-one.com wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:21 pmThe 12 disciples were given to understand the mysteries of the Kingdom of God, which were kept from the general public:
Difflugia wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:44 pmHow does this support your contention that Mark's Twelve weren't also meant to be dimwits?
Because If they understood the Kingdom of God, then they knew things which no one in the world knows today. They knew the mysteries which are sealed from our understanding.
myth-one.com wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:21 pmAnd Jesus explained all things to the disciples when they were alone with Him.
And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it. But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples. (Mark 4:33-34)
Certainly they knew that the end of times would come after mankind had lived for 6,000 years.
Difflugia wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:44 pmThat seems a non sequitur as well as an interesting use of the word "certainly."
Thanks. Good word "certainly."

But it was given to them to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of God.

Are you claiming that the date of the end of time is not a mystery, or that the end of time is not associated with the Kingdom of God, or both?
myth-one.com wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:21 pmAnd knowing that fact, the apostles knew that their generation would not be the generation to see the second coming.
Difflugia wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:44 pmWhich I didn't take issue with here in T&D where harmonization is close to canon. I only took issue with your thus far unsupported claim that the disciple characters weren't written as dimwits.
Thanks. But it is logical. They knew the mysteries, the date of the end of time is a mystery, so they knew it would not occur within their lives.
myth-one.com wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:21 pmTo this date, the scriptures are sealed from the understanding of the general public.
Difflugia wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:44 pmI guess that's always a possibility.
So it's a sequitur?

Nailed it! :dance:

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #16

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #15]
Because If they understood the Kingdom of God, then they knew things which no one in the world knows today. They knew the mysteries which are sealed from our understanding.
"sealed from our understanding".

Who does "our" include or exclude?

You, me?

Does this include the identity of "this generation"?

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #17

Post by Difflugia »

myth-one.com wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:12 pmBecause If they understood the Kingdom of God, then they knew things which no one in the world knows today. They knew the mysteries which are sealed from our understanding.
How does that unwarranted leap in logic trump what the text actually says? In T&D, it's the Bible itself that's authoritative.

Jesus explained to them "the mystery" specifically so that he could explain it to the readers at the same time. After reading Mark, it's no longer sealed from our understanding. His followers were dense for our benefit. They were given the mystery to the kingdom of God, so that we are, too. They knew the mystery that is now unsealed.
myth-one.com wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:12 pm
Difflugia wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:44 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:21 pm Certainly they knew that the end of times would come after mankind had lived for 6,000 years.
That seems a non sequitur as well as an interesting use of the word "certainly."
Thanks. Good word "certainly."
It is, but it doesn't apply here. Nothing in the text directly says what you find "certain" and I don't see a good reason to infer it, even as speculation. "Not impossible" and "certainly" aren't synonyms.
myth-one.com wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:12 pmBut it was given to them to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of God.

Are you claiming that the date of the end of time is not a mystery, or that the end of time is not associated with the Kingdom of God, or both?
Note the subtle, but critical difference between what Jesus says in Mark and what you have here. In Mark 4:11, the Twelve are given the mystery of the kingdom. Mystery there is singular. Unless your speculative 6000 year thing is the only mystery, then Mark means something different by mystery than you seem to think.
myth-one.com wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:12 pm
Difflugia wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:44 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:21 pmAnd knowing that fact, the apostles knew that their generation would not be the generation to see the second coming.
Which I didn't take issue with here in T&D where harmonization is close to canon. I only took issue with your thus far unsupported claim that the disciple characters weren't written as dimwits.
Thanks. But it is logical. They knew the mysteries, the date of the end of time is a mystery, so they knew it would not occur within their lives.
It's not logical because it doesn't logically follow. That's why I called it a non sequitur. You may speculate whatever you want as part of the "mystery" that Jesus gave them, but since your 6000 year thing isn't stated or implied by the text, your conclusion doesn't follow.
myth-one.com wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:12 pm
Difflugia wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:44 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:21 pmTo this date, the scriptures are sealed from the understanding of the general public.
I guess that's always a possibility.
So it's a sequitur?
Nope. Just because it's a possibility doesn't mean that it follows logically.
myth-one.com wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:12 pmNailed it! :dance:
It looks like one of us just got burned again.
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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #18

Post by myth-one.com »


Jesus tells the disciples numerous signs which will indicate that the end is near, then He says:
Matthew 24 wrote:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
The disciples were given to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of God, which are sealed from the general public.

The disciples knew that the date of the end of time would be 6,000 years after mankind began their dominion over the earth.

When Jesus made that statement, about 2,000 years were remaining of the 6,000. The calendars should have been sufficient to let the disciples recognize that their present generation would not live to see the Second Coming. The generation alive at the second Coming is the one which will see that all of the signs have been completed.

Here is why the disciples knew mankind's dominion will last 6,000 years:
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. (Exodus 20:11)
The Sabbath is a sign of what is presently happening. That is, six days of work followed by a Sabbath, where a day is equal to one thousand years.
For a thousand years in thy sight are but yesterday when it is past... (Psalm 90:4)
Recognizing the sabbath as the sign it was meant to be, the age of mankind will be 6,000 years from his dominion over the earth.

Then Jesus will return and spend the millennium sabbath of 1,000 years with those who believe in Him as their Savior.

=====================================================

There is additional evidence that the Second Coming will occur 6,000 years from mankind's creation in chapter 12 in the book of Daniel:
Daniel 12 wrote:6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
So it will be a time, plus a multiple of that time, plus half of that time until all these things should be finished:

Years until the end of time = Time + a multiple of that Time + half that Time

The numerical value to be associated with that period of that time is given in verse 12:
Daniel 12:12 wrote:Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
So time till the end = 1,335 days + 1,335 (X) days + 1,335/2 days

Let the multiple of time be the number 3.

Then the time before the Second Coming and end of time would be:

Time until Second Coming = 1,335 + 3(1,335) + 1,335/2 = 6,007 days

But this is measured from the re-creation of the earth beginning in Genesis 1:3.

And the age of man began after the six day creation and day of rest -- which required 7 days.

So the age of man will be 6,007 days minus 7 = 6,000 days.

But a day is like a thousand years to God.

So the number derived by solving the Daniel 12 riddle is 6,000 years until the Second Coming as measured from mankind's rule over the earth.

===========================================

That is the identical number which the sabbath sign points to.

At the time Jesus made His statement in Matthew 24:34, it is obvious that the generation of the disciples was not the generation which Jesus said would live to see the end of times!

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #19

Post by Checkpoint »

myth-one.com wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 10:04 am
Miles wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 12:13 am And as I pointed out to JehovahsWitness HERE Jesus was telling his disciples they and their generation would be witness to the END.
Yes, his immediate audience wasn't the twelve dimwits, it was the twelve disciples who were well versed in Old Testament prophesies. Here's one that they surely would understand:
Exodus 20:8-11 wrote:Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
They would understand that mankind has six thousand years of dominion over the earth till the end of the world would occur.

And they could confirm this number by solving the equation in the Book of Daniel:

Daniel 12 wrote:7 . . .it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
The solution of that equation is exactly 6,000 years.

Knowing this, the disciples certainly knew that the end would not come until 2,000+ years from Jesus' statement that "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

They knew it did not mean that they would live to see the end of times!
How do any of us know what they knew then.

You have painted your picture, but it is one full of assumptions and suppositions that are your own.

It's not about numbers or about solving an equation.

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #20

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to Revelations won in post #7]
Dear Checkpoint,

It has been my personal experience that when we put forth the effort to search the scriptures diligently, we find the answers to this and many other questions.
Well said.

That is exactly how I became able to discover the answer this thread is about.

Like many, I already had my answer. I had to put that aside and leave myself without any answer.

Only then did my personal study reproduce what was right there winking at me and saying, "Here I am. I wasn't hiding from you. You were hiding from me"!

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