A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

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A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

This thread continues from this exchange between Miles and Checkpoint:

Miles wrote:
No more so than the events in the lame promise Jesus made in Matthew 24:

Matthew 24:34
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Sorry, but the crucial qualifier here is, "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." And, of course, the problem here is that the generation did, in fact, pass, and none of the things were fulfilled.
.
Checkpoint wrote:
Quite so, it seems to nearly everyone.

Their problem is their assumption of who Jesus was referring to as comprising "this generation".
Miles wrote:
So, what do you think "this" and "generation" apply to?

I take "this" to mean


this
/T͟His/
pronoun: this; pronoun: these

1. used to identify a specific person or thing close at hand or being indicated or experienced.
source:Oxford Languages


and "generation" to mean


gen·er·a·tion
/ˌjenəˈrāSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: generation; plural noun: generations

1. all of the people born and living at about the same time, regarded collectively.
source:Oxford Languages

So, what do you think "this" and "generation" apply to?
Checkpoint wrote:

They apply to the particular people group he often spoke to, or spoke about. Almost always in a negative manner.
Miles wrote:
But as can be seen from the definition I cited in Oxford Languages this isn't what "generation" means at all. It means:

"All of the people born and living at about the same time, regarded collectively."


Almost always in a negative manner.
Okay.
Last edited by Checkpoint on Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

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Post by myth-one.com »


It's not a lame promise, only misunderstood by some.

Matthew 24:3 wrote:And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Jesus then tells the disciples numerous signs which will indicate that the end is near.

Then He says:

Matthew 24 wrote:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
The Bible is written for and addresses all of mankind, not just the disciples.

When all of these signs are seen by mankind, the end is near.

The end will occur before the generation of mankind which sees all of these signs passes.

So the generation which sees these signs shall not all die before the end is fulfilled.

That's the meaning of Matthew 24:34.

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #3

Post by tam »

Peace to you all,

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #1]

I knew we had discussed this before, so I went looking... :)

From previous discussions (and specifically about the meaning of the word translated to 'generation'):

We (who belong to Christ, who are adopted as sons) are the same generation... all with God as our Father... all being brothers and sisters. It does not matter 'when' on the timeline we are born; we are 'this' generation that will not pass away before all these things happen. 'This' generation will still be here (still exist) by the time all these things happen; 'it' will not have passed away.
It is not even an obscure meaning:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 1074&t=KJV



I - fathered, birth, nativity

II - that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family

...... A - the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy

.......B - metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character,
............ i - esp. in a bad sense, a perverse nation

III - the whole multitude of men living at the same time

IV - an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years
viewtopic.php?p=939171#p939171

"This generation" is not being used in terms of time. "This generation" is being used in terms of KIND.
viewtopic.php?p=941196#p941196
From the Psalms (14:5, for context):


5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.




Even in the OT, generation is used to denote 'kind' instead of 'time'.
viewtopic.php?p=941835#p941835


viewtopic.php?p=941863#p941863




Christ was not promising a specific time of His return (or a specific time for all those things to have happened), because He said that even He did not know that day or hour.




Peace again to you and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #4

Post by Miles »

myth-one.com wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 10:11 pm
It's not a lame promise, only misunderstood by some.

Matthew 24:3 wrote:And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Jesus then tells the disciples numerous signs which will indicate that the end is near.

Then He says:

Matthew 24 wrote:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
The Bible is written for and addresses all of mankind, not just the disciples.

When all of these signs are seen by mankind, the end is near.

The end will occur before the generation of mankind which sees all of these signs passes.

So the generation which sees these signs shall not all die before the end is fulfilled.

That's the meaning of Matthew 24:34.

And as I pointed out to JehovahsWitness HERE Jesus was telling his disciples they and their generation would be witness to the END.


Matthew 24: 1-/-/->34
1Jesus departed from the temple area and was going on His way when His disciples came up to Him to call His attention to the buildings of the temple and point them out to Him.

2 But He answered them [the disciples he was speaking to], Do you [the disciples he was speaking to] see all these? Truly I tell you [the disciples he was speaking to], there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.

3 While He was seated on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately and said, Tell us, when will this take place, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end (the completion, the consummation) of the age?

4 Jesus answered them, Be careful that no one misleads you [the disciples he was speaking to] [deceiving you and leading you into error].

5 For many will come in (on the strength of) My name, saying, I am the Christ (the Messiah), and they will lead many astray.

6 And you [the disciples he was speaking to] will hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that you [the disciples he was speaking to] are not frightened or troubled, for this must take place, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in place after place;

8 All this is but the beginning [the early pains] of the birth pangs [of the intolerable anguish].

9 Then [after the famines and earthquakes in place after place, and the intolerable anguish] they will hand you [the disciples he was speaking to] over to suffer affliction and tribulation and put you to death, and you [the disciples he was speaking to] will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.
.
.
15 So when you [the disciples he was speaking to] see the appalling sacrilege [the abomination that astonishes and makes desolate], spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the Holy Place—let the reader take notice and ponder and consider and heed [this]
.
.
33 So also when you [the disciples he was speaking to] see these signs, all taken together, coming to pass, you [the disciples he was speaking to] may know of a surety that He is near, at the very doors.
.
[Obviously all this death and destruction was suppose to take place during the lives of the disciples, which puts the generation spoken of as theirs: "THIS generation."]
.
34 Truly I tell you [the disciples he was speaking to] , this generation [the whole multitude of people then living at the same time] will not pass away till all these things taken together take place.


(bolded verse numbers, XX, are those verse in which the disciples were suppose to experience some aspect of the "the end,")


So the promise was lame (mistaken) because the generation did, in fact, pass and "all these things" were not fulfilled.




.

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

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Post by Purple Knight »

myth-one.com wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 10:11 pm
It's not a lame promise, only misunderstood by some.
I always approach everything as if it is true and that if I see a contradiction, I'm the one with the misunderstanding. It leads down some interesting roads.

For example, the promise might have been fulfilled. We assume we're living on earth, when we could easily all be in Hell and then the common face-value interpretation of the scripture ↓↓↓
Miles wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 12:13 amAnd as I pointed out to JehovahsWitness HERE Jesus was telling his disciples they and their generation would be witness to the END.
...would be perfectly correct.

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

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Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #1]



Miles wrote:
So, what do you think "this" and "generation" apply to?
Checkpoint wrote:

They apply to the particular people group he often spoke to, or spoke about. Almost always in a negative manner.
Miles wrote:
But as can be seen from the definition I cited in Oxford Languages this isn't what "generation" means at all. It means:

"All of the people born and living at about the same time, regarded collectively."


Almost always in a negative manner.
Okay.
:handshake: :handshake: :handshake:
Right. We can easily see two different meanings. That is no surprise. It is likely.

How come?

1. Because the meaning I gave came from a book completed 2000 years ago, whereas the meaning you gave came from something published in our time.

2. The book my meaning came from was not written in English, but is translated into English.

This book, the Bible, is a spiritual book, and one that reflects the society that put it together, with traditions and ways of thinking that are not the same as those we have in this modern age.

The publisher your meaning came from wrote in English, about modern society, with the aim of reflecting its word and phrase meanings as they now are.

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #7

Post by Revelations won »

Dear Checkpoint,

I would not be one to challenge the words of the Lord God of Israel. The OP post which some question is answered in the book of John.


Matthew 24:
34
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37
But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38
For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39
And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


John 21:


21
Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?

22
Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
23
Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
24
This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.

Inasmuch as John the beloved as a translated being was to tarry until all those things Jesus prophesied were fulfilled, what is that to thee?

It has been my personal experience that when we put forth the effort to search the scriptures diligently, we find the answers to this and many other questions.

Best regards,
RW

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #8

Post by Difflugia »

Checkpoint wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:23 amMiles wrote:
But as can be seen from the definition I cited in Oxford Languages this isn't what "generation" means at all. It means:

"All of the people born and living at about the same time, regarded collectively."
...traditions and ways of thinking that are not the same as those we have in this modern age.
If either of you is interested, you can read the Liddell-Scott-Jones definition online. Rather than just biblical Greek, it represents the ways words are used in all of the ancient Greek literature that we know of.
My preferred pronouns are he, him, and his.

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #9

Post by myth-one.com »


Miles wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 12:13 am And as I pointed out to JehovahsWitness HERE Jesus was telling his disciples they and their generation would be witness to the END.
Yes, his immediate audience wasn't the twelve dimwits, it was the twelve disciples who were well versed in Old Testament prophesies. Here's one that they surely would understand:
Exodus 20:8-11 wrote:Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
They would understand that mankind has six thousand years of dominion over the earth till the end of the world would occur.

And they could confirm this number by solving the equation in the Book of Daniel:

Daniel 12 wrote:7 . . .it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
The solution of that equation is exactly 6,000 years.

Knowing this, the disciples certainly knew that the end would not come until 2,000+ years from Jesus' statement that "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

They knew it did not mean that they would live to see the end of times!

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #10

Post by Difflugia »

myth-one.com wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 10:04 amYes, his immediate audience wasn't the twelve dimwits
Have you read Mark?

"Don’t you perceive yet or understand? Is your heart still hardened? Having eyes, don’t you see? Having ears, don’t you hear? Don’t you remember?"—Jesus to the dimwits/disciples (Mark 8:17-18)
My preferred pronouns are he, him, and his.

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