A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

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A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

This thread continues from this exchange between Miles and Checkpoint:

Miles wrote:
No more so than the events in the lame promise Jesus made in Matthew 24:

Matthew 24:34
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Sorry, but the crucial qualifier here is, "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." And, of course, the problem here is that the generation did, in fact, pass, and none of the things were fulfilled.
.
Checkpoint wrote:
Quite so, it seems to nearly everyone.

Their problem is their assumption of who Jesus was referring to as comprising "this generation".
Miles wrote:
So, what do you think "this" and "generation" apply to?

I take "this" to mean


this
/T͟His/
pronoun: this; pronoun: these

1. used to identify a specific person or thing close at hand or being indicated or experienced.
source:Oxford Languages


and "generation" to mean


gen·er·a·tion
/ˌjenəˈrāSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: generation; plural noun: generations

1. all of the people born and living at about the same time, regarded collectively.
source:Oxford Languages

So, what do you think "this" and "generation" apply to?
Checkpoint wrote:

They apply to the particular people group he often spoke to, or spoke about. Almost always in a negative manner.
Miles wrote:
But as can be seen from the definition I cited in Oxford Languages this isn't what "generation" means at all. It means:

"All of the people born and living at about the same time, regarded collectively."


Almost always in a negative manner.
Okay.
Last edited by Checkpoint on Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #31

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Checkpoint wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:15 pm
His "this generation" of Matthew 24:34 is the same one that he talked to and about.
SHOULD WE CONCLUDE EVERY REFERENCE JESUS MADE TO "THIS GENERATION" MUST REFER TO THOSE ALIVE DURING JESUS MINISTRY?

A fundemental error novices to biblical understanding take is to come to a conclusion about a text based on common use irrespective of context. While Jesus did make frequent negative assessments of those that witnessed his ministry but refused to believe in his messiahship, the context of Matthew 24 is clearly using the pronoun ("this") to indicate a generation that witnesses a set of events previously mentioned.




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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #32

Post by nobspeople »

Checkpoint wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:15 pm [Replying to myth-one.com in post #26]
When all of the signs have occurred, some of those alive in that generation will live to see the Second Coming.

Jesus never called the generation he often mentioned, "that generation".

He called it what it was then, "this generation".

"this" does not mean "that", and "that does not mean "this".

His "this generation" of Matthew 24:34 is the same one that he talked to and about.

He did not talk about two generations that would have an almost 2000 year time gap, with multiple generations in between.

And no, it is not simply a matter of choosing between those two generations; of choosing the "right" one and rejecting the "wrong" one.

No, he instead spoke of one generation; this generation that was existent then and remains existent today, and will do so until he returns.

How can that possibly be? It is what it is. With God all things are possible.

I'm claiming only what Jesus claimed, as recorded in the Gospels. And doing so without making unproven assumptions.
But by saying "With God all things are possible.", there are assumptions being made (by whom is debatable) - a lot of potential assumptions it seems; everything is then possible! Why even think about it? Just accept it and move on, blindly following. Why concern ourselves over context, or anything, as 'all things all possible'?
he instead spoke of one generation; this generation that was existent then and remains existent today, and will do so until he returns.
That's rather convenient and all-encompassing. That could mean 'forever'. What was the exact wording for this? And why not simply say 'forever' instead of be ambiguous and using terms he knew (if he was all knowing) that would confuse and potentially divide potential believers?
It seems rather unproductive. I would expect more and better word use out of a superior being - if he was indeed that, of course.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #33

Post by Checkpoint »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:30 am
Checkpoint wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:15 pm
His "this generation" of Matthew 24:34 is the same one that he talked to and about.
SHOULD WE CONCLUDE EVERY REFERENCE JESUS MADE TO "THIS GENERATION" MUST REFER TO THOSE ALIVE DURING JESUS MINISTRY?

A fundemental error novices to biblical understanding take is to come to a conclusion about a text based on common use irrespective of context. While Jesus did make frequent negative assessments of those that witnessed his ministry but refused to believe in his messiahship,

the context of Matthew 24 is clearly using the pronoun ("this") to indicate a generation that witnesses a set of events previously mentioned.
Yes, it is vital we recognise what is the context of any verse or passage, and take it into account in drawing a conclusion.

What is the context of Matthew 24?


The immediate context of what is in Matthew 24 does not begin at its first verse. Rather, it begins at the first verse of the previous chapter, 23.

These two chapters comprise a continued conversation between Jesus and the disciples, and/or this was a time of instructive teaching by Jesus to his disciples.

In chapter 23 Jesus talks at some length to the Jewish leaders, describing what they were like, in the presence of the disciples and the crowd.

As he continues talking, he becomes more direct and personal, with terms such as "you snakes", brood of vipers", "child of Gehenna", and "this generation".

Then he laments about Jerusalem, saying "your house is left to you desolate".

So, that is the context of what comes next, Matthew 24. Of "a set of events" that "must be fulfilled", and of its repeat of his term, "this generation".










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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #34

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Checkpoint wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:57 pm
What is the context of Matthew 24?


The immediate context of what is in Matthew 24 does not begin at its first verse. Rather, it begins at the first verse of the previous chapter, 23. These two chapters comprise a continued conversation between Jesus and the disciples ...
That is absolutely false. CHAPTER 23 is the conclusion of Jesus speaking publically in the temple. His audience is the "crowds" comprising of his disciples, the general public and the Pharisess and religious leaders (compare Mat 23:1)


Jesus then leaves the temple (24:1 compare Luke 21:5-7) and withdraw to the area called the mount of olives about a mile from Jerusalem (24:3) . Here the context of MATTHEW 24 is quite different, it is PRIVATE conversation between Jesus and just 4 of his Apostles (Ses Mark 13:3).

CONCLUSION: While Jesus did condemn his faithless generation especially the religious leaders (see Matthew 23) , there is a definite shift in audience, location and and context during his Olivet address recorded by Matthew in CHAPTER 24.






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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #35

Post by Checkpoint »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:55 am
Checkpoint wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:57 pm
What is the context of Matthew 24?


The immediate context of what is in Matthew 24 does not begin at its first verse. Rather, it begins at the first verse of the previous chapter, 23. These two chapters comprise a continued conversation between Jesus and the disciples ...
That is absolutely false. CHAPTER 23 is the conclusion of Jesus speaking p
ublically in the temple. His audience is the "crowds" comprising of his disciples, the general public and the Pharisess and religious leaders (compare Mat 23:1)


Jesus then leaves the temple (24:1 compare Luke 21:5-7) and withdraw to the area called the mount of olives about a mile from Jerusalem (24:3) . Here the context of MATTHEW 24 is quite different, it is PRIVATE conversation between Jesus and just 4 of his Apostles (Ses Mark 13:3).

]CONCLUSION: While Jesus did condemn his faithless generation especially the religious leaders (see Matthew 23) , there is a definite shift in audience, location and and context du
ring his Olivet address recorded by Matthew in CHAPTER 24.

The context of anything in Scripture is not determined by the audience, the location, or the privacy, but by the relevance of any statements made.

Also, the Matthew 24 questions and answers came directly after his teaching and admonishment of Matthew 23, which he ended with the Jerusalem lament.

The observations made then by the disciples and Jesus answer then, were directly in response to what Jesus had just before said about Jerusalem and its fate.

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #36

Post by Sheila D »

Christ is not talking about the generation that lived in his time _ he is talking about the generations of the last hours before the end of days. The entire chapter of Matthew 24 is talking about prophecy that will come to pass when time is almost out. The majority of the prophecies are happening now - they began at his death burial and Resurrection. And a little bit of research shows that it is getting worse and worse and worse, as prophesied
One of the first things people would say: well they've been saying the end is near for centuries _ FOUR thing they did not and could not understand and had to occur - 1) the mark of the beast, 2) the days of Lot, 3) the days of Noah and 4) the gospel must be preached to all Nations. The few Nations that have rejected what is called the civilized world have or had a chance to hear. There was no way that the mark of the beast could be implicated that until the 20th century with the microchip. The days of Lot - just like it was natural and accepted in Sodom and Gomorrah it is natural and accepted these days. The days of Noah is yet to come.
One should refer to Luke 21:29-32 when Luke writes Jesus says this generation shall not pass. And Luke speaks of the parable of the fig tree that Jesus told them about. Fig tree are the Hebrews / Israel and when they begin to bloom and become a nation again that generation shall not pass. What year of generation 120, 80, or 40 year - not to mention at one point Man live hundreds of years so what generation year is he speaking of.

The Bible tells us people real be scoffers and talk about where is the promise of his coming.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=KJV

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #37

Post by Tcg »

Sheila D wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:07 pm There was no way that the mark of the beast could be implicated that until the 20th century with the microchip.
Of course, there is. The "mark of the beast" could be nothing more technologically advanced than a tattoo.


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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #38

Post by Miles »

Sheila D wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:07 pm Christ is not talking about the generation that lived in his time
Sure he is

Matthew 24:34
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
_ he is talking about the generations of the last hours before the end of days.
In which case it would be "This" generation. And because it never occurred in "This" generation it was a lame promise.

The entire chapter of Matthew 24 is talking about prophecy that will come to pass when time is almost out.
Which never came to pass, making it a lame promise/prophecy.

You seem to think Jesus could never make a mistake, but consider: If god could make mistakes, which he admittedly did, why couldn't Jesus? Or do you hold the abilities of Jesus to be above those of god his father?


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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #39

Post by FaithWillDo »

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #1]

Dear Checkpoint,
I wanted to reply to your comments about Matthew 24 and specifically about "this generation will not pass".

All of Matthew chapter 24 is teaching on the pathway to salvation. It is an End-time chapter but the "end-time" is not what is commonly taught. The "end-time" is what happens to our old vessel/carnal nature upon the second coming of Christ (Latter Rain of the Spirit). It is the end-time of our old vessel.

In Mat 24:24, Christ said to the people He was looking face to face with that "verily I say unto YOU, this generation will not pass until all these things be fulfilled". These are not events that happen thousands of years into the future. These events were all fulfilled when those in the upper room on the Day of Pentecost received the Latter Rain of the Spirit (same as the Baptism of the Spirit). That was certainly within the generation of the people He was speaking to. And those same events have been fulfilled over and over again within the lives of all of Christ's Elect since that time.

In Mat 24:29 it says:
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

This verse is an example of Christ's spiritual language. Here is what it means: The "tribulation of those days" is referring to the time we spend in our fallen away state between the Early and Latter Rains. This time period is represented by the last three and a half years of Daniel’s Seventy Weeks Prophecy. I have written a short paper explaining this prophecy which I can send to you if you have any interest. Our time of tribulation (time, times and half a time, 3 ½ years, 42 months, 1260 days) will end at the moment of conversion when our Man of Sin is destroyed. AFTER that happens, the sun is darkened and the moon will not give her light. That means that the converted believer will no longer receive their truth (light) from this world but will now receive it from Christ. It is this light from Christ that destroys our Man of Sin.

2Thes 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

In Mat 24:29, the "heaven" it refers to represents the "mind" of the converted believer. The "stars" (our beliefs) shall fall and the heaven (our mind) will be shaken. It is a spiritually earthshaking event within us. It comes with trumpets, thunder and lightning. The paradigm of our mind is being changed from having a carnal mind to having the mind of Christ. Peter describes it this way:

2Pet 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

In Peter's verse, He adds that the earth and the works therein, will also be burned up. This is referring to the "works of the flesh" which will be judged (burned up). From this judgment, we will then only approach Christ by faith alone.

All End-time prophecy is teaching on the pathway (includes both the wide and narrow paths) that leads to salvation. Because that is true, Christ's second coming event is a re-occurring event within the lives of each of His chosen Elect:

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne...

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


Christ is coming and He has come and He will come to all of His Elect during this present age. They are the only ones who Christ is saving at this time. The rest of mankind will only be saved at the end of the final age. It is 100% His work to save us. The Old Covenant of Law proved that we cannot save ourselves. We all must wait on the Lord to come to us and change us from within so that we can be saved. There is no other way. Man's "works" are rejected by Christ. When a believer claims that they (from their own "free will") made a decision to accept Christ, they are following a doctrine of "works". We must approach Christ solely by faith (which He gives us), knowing that He will do everything necessary to change us from within so that we will make that confession of faith and start traveling the narrow path that ends with our glorified body.

Here is another example of Christ's spiritual language:

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Does Christ really mean that if you use a sword to kill others, then you must likewise be killed with a sword? Literally, that is what He is saying. So if we are to understand it literally, then that statement can easily be proven to be false. There are countless examples of people who have used violence to kill others but then do not die from that same type of violence - it almost goes without saying. So is Christ mistaken or is His message something else?

Since His “words are spirit”, His message must be spiritually understood. Christ’s spiritual message is quite different from what He is literally saying.

In Matt 26:52, Christ is using a spiritual “symbol” to give us His spiritual message. Here Christ uses the symbol of a Sword. To understand what that symbol means, we must look at how it is used elsewhere in scripture – we must compare spiritual with spiritual.

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword...

Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword...


From this example, it is easy to understand that a Sword represents the Word of God. So Christ’s hidden spiritual point He is making in Matt 26:52 is that all who live (those being “born again”) by the Word of God, must perish (death of the carnal nature) by the Word of God.

Water baptism is another symbol which sends the same spiritual message as Matt 26:52. When an individual is baptized in water, the immersion represents the death of their carnal nature (Old Man). The ascension out of the water represents their new birth in Christ in the Kingdom of Heaven. This great work of conversion (salvation) is accomplished by the Word of God (Sword/Christ).

Spiritual understanding of scripture is further explained and expanded by 1Cor 2:13, Isa 28: 10-12 and Psa 119:160.

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

When a Called Out believer cannot understand the Word of God, their lack of understanding will cause them to “fall backward and be broken”. So what does to “fall backward and be broken” actually mean? This is the same as to “fall away” (Heb 6:4-6) and it means to return to one’s own attempt to be acceptable to God through their own works. This is the sin that leads to death (1John 5:16).

God’s Truth is also presented to us in bits and pieces, which means we must put those pieces together to see the truth:

Psa 119:160 The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.

Again, to correctly understand scripture, it must be understood spiritually. For this type of understanding to occur, we must first understand that the words used in scripture do not carry the same meaning as taught by man’s wisdom (1Cor 2:13). Christ’s words are spirit (John 6:63) and we are told to understand their spiritual meaning by comparing them with the same spiritual words used elsewhere in scripture. We must compare spiritual with spiritual. We are to also keep in mind that “the sum of God’s Word is truth.

Have you ever wondered why there are so many different denominational churches in the world, each with their own version of the truth? Those churches are full of Early Rain believers who are spiritually blind. They literally are places where the blind lead the blind.

You may be asking yourself why God made His Word so difficult to understand. I can assure you that He did not do it by mistake. God is purposely concealing Himself from this world so that He can reveal Himself to each individual at a time of His choosing.

Matt 13:10-11 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you (the Elect) to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them (those not Chosen) it is not given.

In scripture, the knowledge of God (which is fully found in Christ) is symbolized by Treasure.

Prov 2:1-5 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

Mat 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

For most people, God has not chosen to reveal Himself to them at this time. So for them, He remains “hidden” Treasure. However, that does not mean that He will forget them and forever remain hidden from their eyes. Scripture promises us that will not be the case.

1Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

1Cor 15: 22-23 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

During this present age, Christ is gathering in the First-fruits of His Harvest. These First-fruits are also called the Chosen, the Elect, the Heirs, the Overcomers, the Bride or the Saints. The remaining harvest of mankind will come later in the final age which God established from the beginning of creation. Contrary to popular belief, Christ is NOT working to save all mankind during this present age. He is only appearing (revealing Himself) to those who have been chosen from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8 & Eph 1:11). We are totally dependent upon Christ for our salvation, even the timing of it. We cannot “choose” ourselves to be one of His “chosen”. Christ alone is the One who calls us, chooses us and empowers us to remain faithful unto the end. It is all His work. To claim otherwise, only proves that we have “fallen away” and are attempting to be acceptable to Christ through our own “works”.

For those who have presently been given “eyes that can see” and “ears that can hear”, Christ is appearing to them and revealing Himself. They are finding great treasure!

The book of Revelation depicts this great treasure of God. This book is the great unveiling of Jesus Christ within an individual - it is salvation. But to keep Christ concealed from those not chosen to receive its message, the book was “signified” to the apostle John. In other words, the Truth was presented in spiritual symbols. It is in no way literal. It is not a book about end-time prophecy or future coming world events. There is no literal Lake of Fire or coming Antichrist who rules the world. And for that matter, there is not even a literal throne room in heaven or a heaven with streets of gold. These are all physical symbols which represent spiritual truths.

Once a believer can understand the spiritual language of Christ, the apparent contradictions in scripture disappear.

Joe

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #40

Post by Sheila D »

[Replying to Miles in post #38]

The people who translated the Hebrew scriptures, and the Greek, Latin, interpretations of the New Testament scriptures - (which took the English translators 41 times over centuries to get it to the point where the KJV was used) had a totally different way of using, putting in sentences and understanding words. As so many we say they didn't have the perfect dialect or writing the perfect sentence as scholars of today.

All prophecy is meant for the future and the prophecies Jesus gave were meant for the time when all things were about to end.
Be it as it is _ believe think as you choose.

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