The Word of God

Exploring the details of Christianity

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William
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The Word of God

Post #1

Post by William »

The Gospels present us with words attributed to have been spoken by biblical Jesus.

Re the Thread Subject, as far as I have been able to examine the claim Christians make that biblical Jesus is "The Word of God", I can find no direct writing which has Jesus making such a claim himself.

I have - of course - found biblical reference of others claiming this about Jesus, but nothing yet of Jesus claiming it of himself.

If we are still to take that claim seriously - even if there is no record of Biblical Jesus making the claim himself ...

QFD: Why is there no known existence of anything Jesus wrote down himself for us to examine?

Should we not expect that someone who may have claimed to be "The Word of God" would have left his own personal record rather than leave that task to others, whom may have misunderstood or even misrepresented him?

Why should we believe The Word of others, [according to them] when all Jesus had to do was write for himself, The Word [according to him]?






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Re: The Word of God

Post #21

Post by William »

[Replying to Tcg in post #20]
That's a whole lotta words,


Irrelevant.

none of which address the fallacies I've identified.
Untrue.

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Re: The Word of God

Post #22

Post by Tcg »

William wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 2:15 am [Replying to Tcg in post #20]
That's a whole lotta words,


Irrelevant.

none of which address the fallacies I've identified.
Untrue.
Now all you have to do is prove the irrelevance and untruth of the facts I've presented. What have you?


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Re: The Word of God

Post #23

Post by William »

William wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 12:13 am [Replying to tam in post #7]
Because He did not have to write anything down.
Then we can ask why anyone had to write anything down, if biblical Jesus didn't have to.
As to Christ being the Word of God...
["snip" unsupported evidence]

“If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. Whoever does not love Me does not keep My words. The word that you hear is not My own, but it is from the Father who sent Me."

I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it.

"I have much to say about you and much to judge. But the One who sent Me is truthful, and what I have heard from Him, I tell the world."

“When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.


Re the idea that biblical Jesus was primarily tasked with bringing individuals to The Father, in that relationship between The Father and the individual might happen;

The above quotations can thus be spoken by anyone in said relationship with The Father, thus anyone who then shares what The Father has revealed to them [as biblical Jesus also claimed to be sharing] could be equally referred to as "The Word of God".
Just to add to the above argument, there are plenty of "messengers sent by God" mentioned in the bible - and like Jesus - none of them called themselves "The Word of God".

Just because followers later made that claim about biblical Jesus, does not mean Jesus ever made that claim about himself.

As I mentioned in the OP;

Re the Thread Subject, as far as I have been able to examine the claim Christians make that biblical Jesus is "The Word of God", I can find no direct writing which has Jesus making such a claim himself.

I have - of course - found biblical reference of others claiming this about Jesus, but nothing yet of Jesus claiming it of himself.


As ever, I am open to view the biblical evidence that Jesus actually referred to himself as "The Word of God".

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Re: The Word of God

Post #24

Post by nobspeople »

William wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:58 pm [Replying to nobspeople in post #2]
But don't expect others to adhere to the bible simply because one says it is the word of god.
Yes - but those are not the terms and conditions set hereabouts. The advantage given is;
The purpose of this subforum is to have a place to freely engage in debates on Christian theology with the basic assumption that the Bible can be used as a primary reference without the need to defend its authority.
If the bible is to be assumed as "Authoritive" but no reason given as to why that is, by what authority is it granted that status?

The answer is "By the authority of he who made the rule."

Rather than, "Because the bible is considered "The Word of God".

So the rule is respected because he who made the rule is to respected re the reason the rule was made, NOT because the bible is "The Word of GOD" and therefore must be respected.

So in that alone, we all are expected to accept the assumption that the bible is the primary referencing agent, rather than be expected to accept the assumption that the bible is "The Word of God" which is simply not a case of 'having to adhere' to any claims regarding the actual authority of the bible as anything other than the main referencing agent.

Things about the legitimacy of documentation within said agent, can be discussed and any claims re that, [such as Jesus stating he was The Word of God] can be questioned.
My statement of "But don't expect others to adhere to the bible simply because one says it is the word of god." wasn't directed at anyone here, simply made in general - basically when we're 'out in the world'.
So the rule is respected because he who made the rule is to respected re the reason the rule was made, NOT because the bible is "The Word of GOD" and therefore must be respected.
Who made this 'rule'?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: The Word of God

Post #25

Post by bjs1 »

William wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:29 pm QFD: Why is there no known existence of anything Jesus wrote down himself for us to examine?
The most likely explanation is that he never wrote any documents for people to preserve.

We do know that he could read and write. Beyond writing on the ground in John, he did occasionally read. See Luke 4:17-21.

Asking why Jesus never wrote any books is something of an empty question. I would compare it to asking why Thomas “Stonewall” Jackson never wrote a book. Jackson was among the greatest military minds America ever produced, and probably the single greatest tactician in American history. He graduated from West Point, served in military for nearly 20 years, fought in two wars, and taught at the Virginia Military Institute for more than a decade. Why don’t we have at least a book on military tactics from him?

The answer is: Because we don’t. Jackson never wrote one, so we don’t have one.

I understand the desire to make history more like fiction, in which things work the way that we expect them to and loose ends always get tied up. That’s just not reality. In this life we will never know why Jesus didn’t write a book himself. He didn’t. Expecting it to be otherwise is futile.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin

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Re: The Word of God

Post #26

Post by Tcg »

bjs1 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:33 am
I understand the desire to make history more like fiction, in which things work the way that we expect them to and loose ends always get tied up. That’s just not reality. In this life we will never know why Jesus didn’t write a book himself. He didn’t. Expecting it to be otherwise is futile.
We don't know that Jesus didn't write a book. All we know is that there are no known writings from Jesus still in existence. He could have written something that has been lost or perhaps writing in the dirt was the totality of his writing career.


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Re: The Word of God

Post #27

Post by William »

[Replying to bjs1 in post #25]
Should we not expect that someone who may have claimed to be "The Word of God" would have left his own personal record rather than leave that task to others, whom may have misunderstood or even misrepresented him?

Why should we believe The Word of others, [according to them] when all Jesus had to do was write for himself, The Word [according to him]?

Given the two personalities are motivated by different agendas and Thomas “Stonewall” Jackson never had the type of claims made about him which biblical Jesus did, I don't think your comparison is a satisfactory one.

The apparent lack of foresight on Jesus' part regarding writing things down rather than entrusting that to others, contradicts the proclaimed nature of the one being written about.

It could be that he chose to do things that way, in order to create something of a smoke-screen as the fake-Christ which developed through the advent of Christianity caused enough distraction for him to be able to work behind the scenes enabling a way in which to sort the tares from the wheat while remaining largely hidden from the eyes of that world.

That would be a more logical reason than simply saying "In this life we will never know why Jesus didn’t write a book himself. He didn’t."

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Re: The Word of God

Post #28

Post by 2timothy316 »

In my experience even if Jesus had written even one book people would still find some reason not to give it authority. It would probably be something like, "Why should I read and follow a guy who was perfect? I'm not perfect so I don't see the point trying to live my life according to what a perfect man says." Or some other such excuse.

I boils down to faith and not the faith as defined in the dictionary but the one described in Hebrews 11:1.

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Re: The Word of God

Post #29

Post by Tcg »

2timothy316 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:54 am In my experience even if Jesus had written even one book people would still find some reason not to give it authority.
How could that be your experience when we in fact don't have any books known to be written by Jesus? What you've provided is conjecture:

noun
an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.


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- American Atheists


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- wiploc


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- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: The Word of God

Post #30

Post by bjs1 »

William wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:49 am [Replying to bjs1 in post #25]
Should we not expect that someone who may have claimed to be "The Word of God" would have left his own personal record rather than leave that task to others, whom may have misunderstood or even misrepresented him?
You can expect whatever you want. Reality rarely matches human expectation.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin

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