The Word of God

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The Word of God

Post #1

Post by William »

The Gospels present us with words attributed to have been spoken by biblical Jesus.

Re the Thread Subject, as far as I have been able to examine the claim Christians make that biblical Jesus is "The Word of God", I can find no direct writing which has Jesus making such a claim himself.

I have - of course - found biblical reference of others claiming this about Jesus, but nothing yet of Jesus claiming it of himself.

If we are still to take that claim seriously - even if there is no record of Biblical Jesus making the claim himself ...

QFD: Why is there no known existence of anything Jesus wrote down himself for us to examine?

Should we not expect that someone who may have claimed to be "The Word of God" would have left his own personal record rather than leave that task to others, whom may have misunderstood or even misrepresented him?

Why should we believe The Word of others, [according to them] when all Jesus had to do was write for himself, The Word [according to him]?






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Re: The Word of God

Post #31

Post by bjs1 »

Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:47 am We don't know that Jesus didn't write a book. All we know is that there are no known writings from Jesus still in existence. He could have written something that has been lost or perhaps writing in the dirt was the totality of his writing career.
Which is why I called it the "most likely explanation." It is possible that Jesus wrote something has been lost to history. Given the importance that some people placed on Jesus' words I find it less likely that anything he wrote would have been left behind, but that doesn't make it impossible.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin

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Re: The Word of God

Post #32

Post by 2timothy316 »

Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:00 am
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:54 am In my experience even if Jesus had written even one book people would still find some reason not to give it authority.
How could that be your experience when we in fact don't have any books known to be written by Jesus? What you've provided is conjecture:

noun
an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.


Tcg
To some there is nothing can ever be done the right way. They are never satisfied with the way anyone does anything.

There's no books by Jesus...and if there were, they'd complain about something else. There is no reasoning with such a person.

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Re: The Word of God

Post #33

Post by William »

bjs1 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:13 am
William wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:49 am [Replying to bjs1 in post #25]
Should we not expect that someone who may have claimed to be "The Word of God" would have left his own personal record rather than leave that task to others, whom may have misunderstood or even misrepresented him?
You can expect whatever you want. Reality rarely matches human expectation.
Yet it is not an established reality that Jesus didn't write things down to preserve his thoughts etc.

It is only an established fact that if he did, there is no evidence of him having done so, which is precisely what the OP is questioning.

The expectation itself is logical enough. That it doesn't match reality, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

But it does throw enough shadow of doubt upon those who did write and attribute words which may never have been spoken by historical Jesus - but only by biblical Jesus, as per the authors renditions of him and his word.

Biblical Jesus make be a fictional representation of historical Jesus...assuming there was an historical Jesus.

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Re: The Word of God

Post #34

Post by William »

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #32]
To some there is nothing can ever be done the right way. They are never satisfied with the way anyone does anything.

There's no books by Jesus...and if there were, they'd complain about something else. There is no reasoning with such a person.
Assuming such a person even exists, and knows what doing things 'the right way' actually is, I see no reason why anyone would be satisfied with stories about biblical Jesus, rather than an actual autobiography written by historical Jesus.

I know which one I would be giving the greater attention to. Coming from the horses mouth. No less.

Now it may be that questions would arise even if Jesus had written his own account of himself, but those questions most likely be more interesting than the questions we can ask Christians and we wouldn't get the runaround we get [more often than not,] re our asking, as no religion/religious personality would be involved in interpreting it for us.

Win/Win.

But alas, there is not that to show for it. The Life of Historical Jesus in His Own Words, is missing in action.

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Re: The Word of God

Post #35

Post by Tcg »

2timothy316 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:21 am
Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:00 am
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:54 am In my experience even if Jesus had written even one book people would still find some reason not to give it authority.
How could that be your experience when we in fact don't have any books known to be written by Jesus? What you've provided is conjecture:

noun
an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.


Tcg
To some there is nothing can ever be done the right way. They are never satisfied with the way anyone does anything.

There's no books by Jesus...and if there were, they'd complain about something else. There is no reasoning with such a person.
Simply rephrasing your conjecture does not support is as being true. We have no books or any other writing by Jesus. To presume to know how people would react if we did is not based on facts but guesswork. Guesswork provides little value in a debate setting.


Tcg
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Re: The Word of God

Post #36

Post by William »

tam wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 12:44 am Peace to you,
[Replying to William in post #9]

["snip" unsupported evidence]
Here you go:

He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:13


Surely you knew that?
The whole of Revelations is one's person's testimony about something he claimed to have experienced, which no one else saw and could verify.

As such, it fits into the category of "Unsupported Statement" and can be placed to one side.

It is not so much about what others claimed biblical Jesus said, but about what was written by others in that they claim are words which he spoke, and in those words, what he said about himself.

Where therein any of those words, does biblical Jesus claim to be "The Word of God"?

The argument offered - that he spoke on behalf of The Father, does not say anything more than any other biblical character claiming to have been "sent by God", with a message claimed to be from the mouth of that God, for a human/humans to hear, can be referred to as "The Word of God".

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Re: The Word of God

Post #37

Post by tam »

tam wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 1:36 am Peace to you,
William wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 1:13 am
tam wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 12:44 am Peace to you,
[Replying to William in post #9]

["snip" unsupported evidence]
Here you go:

He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:13


Surely you knew that?
As I said, Revelations has to be considered unsupported evidence due to it not being witnessed by anyone else.

Surely you knew that?
Revelation is just one place where Christ is referred to as the Word of God. (Though John saw some of the same things that other prophets received in visions given to them.) Christ is also clearly stated to be the Word of God in the book of "John" (not the same person who received and wrote Revelation).

Christ also stated,

Your Word is Truth... compared with... I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

Sounds like some consensus on who is the Word of God.



Granted, it does not seem to matter to you if there are multiple attestations or not, since there are multiple attestations to Christ saying He will return. (not MIGHT return, but WILL return) Yet that does not appear to be acceptable to you either. So the actual problem is not really about "unsupported statements".

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Re: The Word of God

Post #38

Post by 2timothy316 »

Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:28 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:21 am
Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:00 am
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:54 am In my experience even if Jesus had written even one book people would still find some reason not to give it authority.
How could that be your experience when we in fact don't have any books known to be written by Jesus? What you've provided is conjecture:

noun
an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.


Tcg
To some there is nothing can ever be done the right way. They are never satisfied with the way anyone does anything.

There's no books by Jesus...and if there were, they'd complain about something else. There is no reasoning with such a person.
Simply rephrasing your conjecture does not support is as being true. We have no books or any other writing by Jesus. To presume to know how people would react if we did is not based on facts but guesswork. Guesswork provides little value in a debate setting.


Tcg
Actually it is based on facts. I have been debating this topic for decades and there is no winner in debating this topic as long as in the eyes of some there can be no Word of God. For many there will always be something wrong with the Bible. "Jesus didn't write anything" is just another excuse not to accept the Bible. But hey its your choice, have fun storming the castle.

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Re: The Word of God

Post #39

Post by 2timothy316 »

William wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:20 pm [Replying to 2timothy316 in post #32]
To some there is nothing can ever be done the right way. They are never satisfied with the way anyone does anything.

There's no books by Jesus...and if there were, they'd complain about something else. There is no reasoning with such a person.
Assuming such a person even exists, and knows what doing things 'the right way' actually is, I see no reason why anyone would be satisfied with stories about biblical Jesus, rather than an actual autobiography written by historical Jesus.

I know which one I would be giving the greater attention to. Coming from the horses mouth. No less.

Now it may be that questions would arise even if Jesus had written his own account of himself, but those questions most likely be more interesting than the questions we can ask Christians and we wouldn't get the runaround we get [more often than not,] re our asking, as no religion/religious personality would be involved in interpreting it for us.

Win/Win.

But alas, there is not that to show for it. The Life of Historical Jesus in His Own Words, is missing in action.
It is recorded that the Jewish leadership saw Jesus raise people from the dead and yet they still didn't believe that he was God's Son. So would a person that doesn't believe that the Bible is the Word of God suddenly believe it is because Jesus wrote one of the books? I doubt it. Those that don't want to believe don't want to believe and then they post threads like this one so that others will doubt as well.

Figuring out the most likely result is from the evidence available is called critical thinking.

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Re: The Word of God

Post #40

Post by Tcg »

2timothy316 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:35 pm
Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:28 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:21 am
Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:00 am
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:54 am In my experience even if Jesus had written even one book people would still find some reason not to give it authority.
How could that be your experience when we in fact don't have any books known to be written by Jesus? What you've provided is conjecture:

noun
an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.


Tcg
To some there is nothing can ever be done the right way. They are never satisfied with the way anyone does anything.

There's no books by Jesus...and if there were, they'd complain about something else. There is no reasoning with such a person.
Simply rephrasing your conjecture does not support is as being true. We have no books or any other writing by Jesus. To presume to know how people would react if we did is not based on facts but guesswork. Guesswork provides little value in a debate setting.


Tcg
Actually it is based on facts.
It can't possibly be. You can't present facts of how people would react to something that doesn't exist. You can present guesswork as you have done, but guesswork isn't fact.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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