The Word of God

Exploring the details of Christianity

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William
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The Word of God

Post #1

Post by William »

The Gospels present us with words attributed to have been spoken by biblical Jesus.

Re the Thread Subject, as far as I have been able to examine the claim Christians make that biblical Jesus is "The Word of God", I can find no direct writing which has Jesus making such a claim himself.

I have - of course - found biblical reference of others claiming this about Jesus, but nothing yet of Jesus claiming it of himself.

If we are still to take that claim seriously - even if there is no record of Biblical Jesus making the claim himself ...

QFD: Why is there no known existence of anything Jesus wrote down himself for us to examine?

Should we not expect that someone who may have claimed to be "The Word of God" would have left his own personal record rather than leave that task to others, whom may have misunderstood or even misrepresented him?

Why should we believe The Word of others, [according to them] when all Jesus had to do was write for himself, The Word [according to him]?






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Re: The Word of God

Post #2

Post by nobspeople »

William wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:29 pm The Gospels present us with words attributed to have been spoken by biblical Jesus.

Re the Thread Subject, as far as I have been able to examine the claim Christians make that biblical Jesus is "The Word of God", I can find no direct writing which has Jesus making such a claim himself.

I have - of course - found biblical reference of others claiming this about Jesus, but nothing yet of Jesus claiming it of himself.

If we are still to take that claim seriously - even if there is no record of Biblical Jesus making the claim himself ...

QFD: Why is there no known existence of anything Jesus wrote down himself for us to examine?

Should we not expect that someone who may have claimed to be "The Word of God" would have left his own personal record rather than leave that task to others, whom may have misunderstood or even misrepresented him?

Why should we believe The Word of others, [according to them] when all Jesus had to do was write for himself, The Word [according to him]?






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I have heard of nothing that exists that shows a literal 'note' of jesus by his own hand. Some would speculate that, outside his 'godness', he couldn't write or read (but if he was god, then likely he could). Being that there's nothing from him, that I've ever seen, that is in his own handwriting saying that he's god, at best he's just a guy (and even if there was a claim to that effect, could it be believed?). And did guys at this time have the ability to read and write enough to write down their own thoughts like one could today?
Many would say NO.

On an aside, many christians claim (according to many on this very forum) the bible isn't 'the word of god' because, it seems, it has errors within it.

So it seems, the best we have is 'someone saying someone said', or 'someone saying someone else said someone said' and on and on.
But if that's good enough for some, great! But don't expect others to adhere to the bible simply because one says it is the word of god.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: The Word of God

Post #3

Post by William »

[Replying to nobspeople in post #2]
But don't expect others to adhere to the bible simply because one says it is the word of god.
Yes - but those are not the terms and conditions set hereabouts. The advantage given is;
The purpose of this subforum is to have a place to freely engage in debates on Christian theology with the basic assumption that the Bible can be used as a primary reference without the need to defend its authority.
If the bible is to be assumed as "Authoritive" but no reason given as to why that is, by what authority is it granted that status?

The answer is "By the authority of he who made the rule."

Rather than, "Because the bible is considered "The Word of God".

So the rule is respected because he who made the rule is to respected re the reason the rule was made, NOT because the bible is "The Word of GOD" and therefore must be respected.

So in that alone, we all are expected to accept the assumption that the bible is the primary referencing agent, rather than be expected to accept the assumption that the bible is "The Word of God" which is simply not a case of 'having to adhere' to any claims regarding the actual authority of the bible as anything other than the main referencing agent.

Things about the legitimacy of documentation within said agent, can be discussed and any claims re that, [such as Jesus stating he was The Word of God] can be questioned.

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Re: The Word of God

Post #4

Post by Miles »

William wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:29 pm The Gospels present us with words attributed to have been spoken by biblical Jesus.

Re the Thread Subject, as far as I have been able to examine the claim Christians make that biblical Jesus is "The Word of God", I can find no direct writing which has Jesus making such a claim himself.

I have - of course - found biblical reference of others claiming this about Jesus, but nothing yet of Jesus claiming it of himself.

If we are still to take that claim seriously - even if there is no record of Biblical Jesus making the claim himself ...

QFD: Why is there no known existence of anything Jesus wrote down himself for us to examine?
Probably the correct answer is the most obvious one. He never wrote anything, or what he did write never survived.

Should we not expect that someone who may have claimed to be "The Word of God" would have left his own personal record rather than leave that task to others, whom may have misunderstood or even misrepresented him?
Considering your qualifier, "may have," one can only say "Perhaps. Perhaps not."
Why should we believe The Word of others, [according to them] when all Jesus had to do was write for himself, The Word [according to him]?
Unless the "world of others" can be confirmed you shouldn't; however, because some people have a crying need to believe, and will believe most anything as long as it satisfies that need, that's exactly what they'll do.


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Re: The Word of God

Post #5

Post by Tcg »

William wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:29 pm The Gospels present us with words attributed to have been spoken by biblical Jesus.

Re the Thread Subject, as far as I have been able to examine the claim Christians make that biblical Jesus is "The Word of God", I can find no direct writing which has Jesus making such a claim himself.

I have - of course - found biblical reference of others claiming this about Jesus, but nothing yet of Jesus claiming it of himself.

If we are still to take that claim seriously - even if there is no record of Biblical Jesus making the claim himself ...

QFD: Why is there no known existence of anything Jesus wrote down himself for us to examine?

Should we not expect that someone who may have claimed to be "The Word of God" would have left his own personal record rather than leave that task to others, whom may have misunderstood or even misrepresented him?

Why should we believe The Word of others, [according to them] when all Jesus had to do was write for himself, The Word [according to him]?
Luke 4 gives a report of Jesus reading from Isaiah. The only report we have of Jesus writing is from John 8 where Jesus scribbled on the ground. The authenticity of this passage is highly debated. The fact that someone can read doesn't necessarily imply that they can write. The simple answer may very well be that we have nothing written by Jesus because he couldn't write.


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Re: The Word of God

Post #6

Post by Miles »

Tcg wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:02 pm
William wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:29 pm The Gospels present us with words attributed to have been spoken by biblical Jesus.

Re the Thread Subject, as far as I have been able to examine the claim Christians make that biblical Jesus is "The Word of God", I can find no direct writing which has Jesus making such a claim himself.

I have - of course - found biblical reference of others claiming this about Jesus, but nothing yet of Jesus claiming it of himself.

If we are still to take that claim seriously - even if there is no record of Biblical Jesus making the claim himself ...

QFD: Why is there no known existence of anything Jesus wrote down himself for us to examine?

Should we not expect that someone who may have claimed to be "The Word of God" would have left his own personal record rather than leave that task to others, whom may have misunderstood or even misrepresented him?

Why should we believe The Word of others, [according to them] when all Jesus had to do was write for himself, The Word [according to him]?
Luke 4 gives a report of Jesus reading from Isaiah. The only report we have of Jesus writing is from John 8 where Jesus scribbled on the ground. The authenticity of this passage is highly debated. The fact that someone can read doesn't necessarily imply that they can write. The simple answer may very well be that we have nothing written by Jesus because he couldn't write.
Which would be my guess because ostensibly he had no need to write anything down---He seemed to be forever talking/preaching to the common man who was far from likely to be able to read---so why bother learning to.

I fact . . . .

The first factor to consider is how prevalent literacy was in Jesus’ time. Full literacy means being able to read and write proficiently, but degrees of literacy vary; people who can read, for example, may not be able to write. A common view is that of W.H. Kelber, who claims that, in first-century A.D. Palestine, “writing was in the hands of an élite of trained specialists, and reading required an advanced education available only to a few.” It is often asserted that writing was restricted to government and religious circles and would have had no place among the peasantry of Galilee, where Jesus did much of his teaching. If this statement were true, there would be more validity to the widely-held opinion that knowledge of Jesus’ words and deeds depended on oral tradition—people passed on what they saw and heard by word of mouth—until about 70 A.D., when the earliest of the Gospels, the Gospel of Mark, was composed.
source




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Re: The Word of God

Post #7

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
William wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:29 pm The Gospels present us with words attributed to have been spoken by biblical Jesus.

Re the Thread Subject, as far as I have been able to examine the claim Christians make that biblical Jesus is "The Word of God", I can find no direct writing which has Jesus making such a claim himself.

I have - of course - found biblical reference of others claiming this about Jesus, but nothing yet of Jesus claiming it of himself.

If we are still to take that claim seriously - even if there is no record of Biblical Jesus making the claim himself ...

QFD: Why is there no known existence of anything Jesus wrote down himself for us to examine?

Because He did not have to write anything down. He knew that He would be alive and that He would continue to speak, teach, train and lead His people. He knew that His sheep would listen to His voice.

We have examples of Him doing this exact thing in the NT; specific examples of Him speaking to Paul (numerous examples, including on the road to Damascus), to Ananias (Acts 9), to Phillip (Acts 8), to Peter (Acts 10), to John (as in the entire book of Revelation).

While in the flesh, He also said that His sheep would listen to His voice; that He would call them by name, and that He had more to bring.

“I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd." John 10:14-16

My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. John 10:27


People wrote down many of His words and teachings and deeds (including the Revelation that He gave to John pf Patmos to write down, which does identify Christ as the Word of God), but He Himself would be (and is) alive. He is a living Teacher.


Besides which, people have a habit of making icons and idols out of non-living things; religions have lorded the bible over people (claiming only they know what it means, for example). Makes me wonder what people might do with something that is believed to have been written from Christ Himself; the power someone might claim for themselves just to be in possession of something like that.


Regardless, something like that is not (and has not been) needed for Him to call and choose His own, for His own to hear and come to Him. Or for his own to bear witness to Him so that others might also seek Him, come to Him, listen to His voice, accept His invitation.



Should we not expect that someone who may have claimed to be "The Word of God" would have left his own personal record rather than leave that task to others, whom may have misunderstood or even misrepresented him?

Should we expect it? I don't see why we should, for the reasons stated above.

And we are supposed to be walking by FAITH (at the very least learning to do so), and faith is based upon what is HEARD...in/from the Spirit/Christ, from God - just as Peter received from the Father that Jaheshua was the Christ, the Son of God, and Peter BELIEVED what the Father had revealed to Him. That is FAITH. (not yelling with the caps, just emphasizing) That is the faith with which Christ uses to build His Church. He is Himself the Rock upon whom His Church is built, using the FAITH that Peter showed.




**


As to Christ being the Word of God, in addition to this being clear in Revelation, Christ is also written to have said the following, regarding the words that He spoke:


“If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24Whoever does not love Me does not keep My words. The word that you hear is not My own, but it is from the Father who sent Me." John 14:23, 24

I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it. John 12:49

"I have much to say about you and much to judge. But the One who sent Me is truthful, and what I have heard from Him, I tell the world." John 8:26

“When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. John 8:28




Peace again to you and to you all!

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Re: The Word of God

Post #8

Post by William »

[Replying to Tcg in post #5]
The simple answer may very well be that we have nothing written by Jesus because he couldn't write.
Search: Can you read without being able to write?
It's also possible to be able to read but not be able to write simply because they're two different skills. They may be able to read at text but they may not be able to reproduce it or to put their own thoughts into text because they're not familiar enough with the language's alphabet, syntax, grammar, etc.

I think it is safe to say that biblical Jesus likely knew how to write and would have been familiar with putting his own thoughts into text, familiar not only with the Hebrew alphabet, but the meaning of each letter as well.

Given we are informed that biblical Jesus 'wrote on the ground' we can go along with that as biblical evidence that he knew how to write.

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Re: The Word of God

Post #9

Post by William »

[Replying to tam in post #7]
Because He did not have to write anything down.
Then we can ask why anyone had to write anything down, if biblical Jesus didn't have to.
As to Christ being the Word of God...
["snip" unsupported evidence]

“If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. Whoever does not love Me does not keep My words. The word that you hear is not My own, but it is from the Father who sent Me."

I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it.

"I have much to say about you and much to judge. But the One who sent Me is truthful, and what I have heard from Him, I tell the world."

“When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.


Re the idea that biblical Jesus was primarily tasked with bringing individuals to The Father, in that relationship between The Father and the individual might happen;

The above quotations can thus be spoken by anyone in said relationship with The Father, thus anyone who then shares what The Father has revealed to them [as biblical Jesus also claimed to be sharing] could be equally referred to as "The Word of God".
Last edited by William on Sat Nov 06, 2021 12:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Word of God

Post #10

Post by Tcg »

William wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 11:56 pm
Given we are informed that biblical Jesus 'wrote on the ground' we can go along with that as biblical evidence that he knew how to write.
Sure. If one has an agenda that depends on the idea that Jesus knew how to write. Scratching in the dirt certainly doesn't qualify as solid evidence that he did.


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