The Word of God

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The Word of God

Post #1

Post by William »

The Gospels present us with words attributed to have been spoken by biblical Jesus.

Re the Thread Subject, as far as I have been able to examine the claim Christians make that biblical Jesus is "The Word of God", I can find no direct writing which has Jesus making such a claim himself.

I have - of course - found biblical reference of others claiming this about Jesus, but nothing yet of Jesus claiming it of himself.

If we are still to take that claim seriously - even if there is no record of Biblical Jesus making the claim himself ...

QFD: Why is there no known existence of anything Jesus wrote down himself for us to examine?

Should we not expect that someone who may have claimed to be "The Word of God" would have left his own personal record rather than leave that task to others, whom may have misunderstood or even misrepresented him?

Why should we believe The Word of others, [according to them] when all Jesus had to do was write for himself, The Word [according to him]?






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Re: The Word of God

Post #41

Post by 2timothy316 »

Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:46 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:35 pm
Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:28 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:21 am
Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:00 am
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:54 am In my experience even if Jesus had written even one book people would still find some reason not to give it authority.
How could that be your experience when we in fact don't have any books known to be written by Jesus? What you've provided is conjecture:

noun
an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.


Tcg
To some there is nothing can ever be done the right way. They are never satisfied with the way anyone does anything.

There's no books by Jesus...and if there were, they'd complain about something else. There is no reasoning with such a person.
Simply rephrasing your conjecture does not support is as being true. We have no books or any other writing by Jesus. To presume to know how people would react if we did is not based on facts but guesswork. Guesswork provides little value in a debate setting.


Tcg
Actually it is based on facts.
It can't possibly be. You can't present facts of how people would react to something that doesn't exist. You can present guesswork as you have done, but guesswork isn't fact.


Tcg
Yup it is. Live my life and prove me wrong.

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Re: The Word of God

Post #42

Post by Tcg »

2timothy316 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:49 pm
Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:46 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:35 pm
Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:28 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:21 am
Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:00 am
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:54 am In my experience even if Jesus had written even one book people would still find some reason not to give it authority.
How could that be your experience when we in fact don't have any books known to be written by Jesus? What you've provided is conjecture:

noun
an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.


Tcg
To some there is nothing can ever be done the right way. They are never satisfied with the way anyone does anything.

There's no books by Jesus...and if there were, they'd complain about something else. There is no reasoning with such a person.
Simply rephrasing your conjecture does not support is as being true. We have no books or any other writing by Jesus. To presume to know how people would react if we did is not based on facts but guesswork. Guesswork provides little value in a debate setting.


Tcg
Actually it is based on facts.
It can't possibly be. You can't present facts of how people would react to something that doesn't exist. You can present guesswork as you have done, but guesswork isn't fact.


Tcg
Yup it is. Examine my life and prove me wrong.
It is your duty to prove your assertions true. Proving a reaction to a nonexistent text is impossible and yet here you are claiming it true.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: The Word of God

Post #43

Post by William »

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #39]
So would a person that doesn't believe that the Bible is the Word of God suddenly believe it is because Jesus wrote one of the books?
Hard to say. Perhaps anything Jesus wrote would conflict so much with what the Christians wrote, that it could not possibly been seen to belong in the bible.
That might also explain why, if Jesus did write anything down, it isn't seen to be anywhere in the bible.

Maybe the early followers did have writing from Jesus, and the Romans made sure it never saw the light of day, or found its way into the bible?

As it stands, the bible doesn't appear to refer to itself as 'The Word of God' anyway...any more than Jesus did.
The question is only asked because Christians claim the bible is 'The Word of God'.

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Re: The Word of God

Post #44

Post by Tcg »

William wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:53 pm [Replying to 2timothy316 in post #39]
So would a person that doesn't believe that the Bible is the Word of God suddenly believe it is because Jesus wrote one of the books?
Hard to say. Perhaps anything Jesus wrote would conflict so much with what the Christians wrote, that it could not possibly been seen to belong in the bible.
That might also explain why, if Jesus did write anything down, it isn't seen to be anywhere in the bible.

Maybe the early followers did have writing from Jesus, and the Romans made sure it never saw the light of day, or found its way into the bible?

As it stands, the bible doesn't appear to refer to itself as 'The Word of God' anyway...any more than Jesus did.
The question is only asked because Christians claim the bible is 'The Word of God'.
Or perhaps we have nothing in Jesus' hand because he never wrote in anything other than dirt that one time.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: The Word of God

Post #45

Post by William »

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #41]
Yup it is. Live my life and prove me wrong.
One cannot live another's life let alone prove someone right or wrong even if they could.

[The statement therefore, is a fallacy, re debating arguments.]

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Re: The Word of God

Post #46

Post by William »

[Replying to Tcg in post #44]
Or perhaps we have nothing in Jesus' hand because he never wrote in anything other than dirt that one time.
Yes. Perhaps that is what happened.

And since we have no record of Jesus calling himself 'The Word of God' and nothing in the bible calling itself 'the word of God', we are left with the answer that Christians who call biblical Jesus, or even the bible 'the word of God', are doing so without any significant supporting evidence.

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Re: The Word of God

Post #47

Post by 2timothy316 »

Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:52 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:49 pm
Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:46 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:35 pm
Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:28 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:21 am
Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:00 am
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:54 am In my experience even if Jesus had written even one book people would still find some reason not to give it authority.
How could that be your experience when we in fact don't have any books known to be written by Jesus? What you've provided is conjecture:

noun
an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.


Tcg
To some there is nothing can ever be done the right way. They are never satisfied with the way anyone does anything.

There's no books by Jesus...and if there were, they'd complain about something else. There is no reasoning with such a person.
Simply rephrasing your conjecture does not support is as being true. We have no books or any other writing by Jesus. To presume to know how people would react if we did is not based on facts but guesswork. Guesswork provides little value in a debate setting.


Tcg
Actually it is based on facts.
It can't possibly be. You can't present facts of how people would react to something that doesn't exist. You can present guesswork as you have done, but guesswork isn't fact.


Tcg
Yup it is. Examine my life and prove me wrong.
It is your duty to prove your assertions true. Proving a reaction to a nonexistent text is impossible and yet here you are claiming it true.


Tcg
I have no way to make you experience my life so now what? Just because I can't make you experience my life does that make what I say untrue?

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Re: The Word of God

Post #48

Post by Tcg »

2timothy316 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 5:06 pm
Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:52 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:49 pm
Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:46 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:35 pm
Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:28 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:21 am
Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:00 am
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:54 am In my experience even if Jesus had written even one book people would still find some reason not to give it authority.
How could that be your experience when we in fact don't have any books known to be written by Jesus? What you've provided is conjecture:

noun
an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.


Tcg
To some there is nothing can ever be done the right way. They are never satisfied with the way anyone does anything.

There's no books by Jesus...and if there were, they'd complain about something else. There is no reasoning with such a person.
Simply rephrasing your conjecture does not support is as being true. We have no books or any other writing by Jesus. To presume to know how people would react if we did is not based on facts but guesswork. Guesswork provides little value in a debate setting.


Tcg
Actually it is based on facts.
It can't possibly be. You can't present facts of how people would react to something that doesn't exist. You can present guesswork as you have done, but guesswork isn't fact.


Tcg
Yup it is. Examine my life and prove me wrong.
It is your duty to prove your assertions true. Proving a reaction to a nonexistent text is impossible and yet here you are claiming it true.


Tcg
I have no way to make you experience my life so now what? Just because I can't make you experience my life does that make what I say untrue?
It makes your claims unverifiable. In other words, useless.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: The Word of God

Post #49

Post by 2timothy316 »

Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 5:10 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 5:06 pm
Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:52 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:49 pm
Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:46 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:35 pm
Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:28 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:21 am
Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:00 am
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:54 am In my experience even if Jesus had written even one book people would still find some reason not to give it authority.
How could that be your experience when we in fact don't have any books known to be written by Jesus? What you've provided is conjecture:

noun
an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.


Tcg
To some there is nothing can ever be done the right way. They are never satisfied with the way anyone does anything.

There's no books by Jesus...and if there were, they'd complain about something else. There is no reasoning with such a person.
Simply rephrasing your conjecture does not support is as being true. We have no books or any other writing by Jesus. To presume to know how people would react if we did is not based on facts but guesswork. Guesswork provides little value in a debate setting.


Tcg
Actually it is based on facts.
It can't possibly be. You can't present facts of how people would react to something that doesn't exist. You can present guesswork as you have done, but guesswork isn't fact.


Tcg
Yup it is. Examine my life and prove me wrong.
It is your duty to prove your assertions true. Proving a reaction to a nonexistent text is impossible and yet here you are claiming it true.


Tcg
I have no way to make you experience my life so now what? Just because I can't make you experience my life does that make what I say untrue?
It makes your claims unverifiable. In other words, useless.


Tcg
If you want them to be useless that is your choice. What I say doesn't have to be verifiable to you for them to be true.

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Re: The Word of God

Post #50

Post by 2timothy316 »

William wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:58 pm [Replying to 2timothy316 in post #41]
Yup it is. Live my life and prove me wrong.
One cannot live another's life let alone prove someone right or wrong even if they could.

[The statement therefore, is a fallacy, re debating arguments.]
Fallacy to you, but not to me because I have lived my life. The truth is that people are going to believe what they want to believe. I am no exception to that rule. I once used to think that the Bible wasn't the word of any God. I would not cared if Jesus wrote something or not. No one can change what one believes but themselves. People would tell me things about the Bible that made sense but that didn't matter because believing that the Bible was the Word of God wasn't what I wanted to believe so I didn't. So if people think that if writings from Jesus were found that everyone would suddenly believe in the Bible they are fooling themselves.

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