Resurrection

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Noose001
Apprentice
Posts: 207
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:32 am
Has thanked: 33 times
Been thanked: 6 times

Resurrection

Post #1

Post by Noose001 »

Biblical Ressurection; The idea that dead believers' spirits immediately transit into living believers minds, why not? I.e. the dead believers resurrect immediately and indwell the living belivers here on earth.

Checkpoint
Prodigy
Posts: 4036
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:07 pm
Has thanked: 103 times
Been thanked: 62 times

Re: Resurrection

Post #21

Post by Checkpoint »

Noose001 wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:49 am
Checkpoint wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:42 am

Why not?

Good question.

Because the idea is neither biblical nor resurrection.
Then you have no idea.
I have?

No idea about what?

You're idea?

Noose001
Apprentice
Posts: 207
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:32 am
Has thanked: 33 times
Been thanked: 6 times

Re: Resurrection

Post #22

Post by Noose001 »

Checkpoint wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:18 am
I have?

No idea about what?

Resurrection.
Well, after studying it again, i realised the 'traditional' teachings around resurrection can not be right.

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 7454
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 643 times
Been thanked: 153 times

Re: Resurrection

Post #23

Post by onewithhim »

Noose001 wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:10 am
onewithhim wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:16 pm

It wasn't Elijah's spirit body, like John with the spirit body of Elijah possessing him. No, Elijah's "spirit" was Elijah's mind-set and ways of thinking (his impelling mental inclination) that influenced John the Baptist. Humans do not have spirits within them that are conscious and go on living after the death of the person. The Bible does not say that anywhere. Can you show me exactly where you get that idea? When a person dies he is dead and is conscious of NOTHING. (Ecclesiastes 9:5)It is as if he was in a deep sleep from which he wakes up only when Jesus institutes the Resurrection "in the last day." (John 5:28; John 6:40,44; John 11:11)
Except that believers do not die but transition in a twinkling of an eye. The thief on the cross was promised heaven that same night, i don't think he was going to sleep until....
It is biblical that believers die and resurrect almost simultaneously to indwell the minds of living believers where they judge them.
God said that humans would die and go back to the dust. (Genesis 3:19) Are we calling God a liar?

It is not Biblical that believers die and resurrect almost at once. Paul spoke of the dead who were "asleep" in death, and Jesus likened death to sleep. The thief of the stake next to Jesus didn't think he would be anywhere that day. Jesus said that he would be with him in Paradise, but it wasn't "today" because he was dead for three days.

Checkpoint
Prodigy
Posts: 4036
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:07 pm
Has thanked: 103 times
Been thanked: 62 times

Re: Resurrection

Post #24

Post by Checkpoint »

Noose001 wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:19 am
Checkpoint wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:18 am
I have?

No idea about what?

Resurrection.
Well, after studying it again, i realised the 'traditional' teachings around resurrection can not be right.
O.k. Please tell more about that. Such as:

What do you understand the traditional teachings are, on resurrection?

In what details are those traditional teachings not right?

myth-one.com
Savant
Posts: 6085
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:16 pm
Has thanked: 23 times
Been thanked: 60 times
Contact:

Re: Resurrection

Post #25

Post by myth-one.com »

Noose001 wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:44 am Biblical Ressurection; The idea that dead believers' spirits immediately transit into living believers minds, why not? I.e. the dead believers resurrect immediately and indwell the living belivers here on earth.
I Corinthians 15:22 wrote:For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
So every human who ever lived will be made alive again, or resurrected. All includes both believers and nonbelievers! However, all will not be resurrected at the same time. There will be an order to the resurrections:
I Corinthians 15:23 wrote:But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
So Jesus will be resurrected first, and that has already occurred.

The resurrection which we presently await is the one at which those "that are Christ's" will be resurrected. Those "that are Christ's" refers to Christians. This resurrection for all those that are Christ's occurs at the Second Coming of Jesus to the earth, or "at his coming."

The rest of the dead are nonbelievers, who will be resurrected as humans a thousand years after the Second Coming:
Revelation 20:5 wrote:But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
<====================================>

What is the source of your definition of "Biblical Resurrection"?
Remember Uvalde!

User avatar
Miles
Prodigy
Posts: 3394
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
Has thanked: 266 times
Been thanked: 941 times

Re: Resurrection

Post #26

Post by Miles »

myth-one.com wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:10 pm
Noose001 wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:44 am Biblical Ressurection; The idea that dead believers' spirits immediately transit into living believers minds, why not? I.e. the dead believers resurrect immediately and indwell the living belivers here on earth.
I Corinthians 15:22 wrote:For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
So every human who ever lived will be made alive again, or resurrected. All includes both believers and nonbelievers! However, all will not be resurrected at the same time. There will be an order to the resurrections:
I Corinthians 15:23 wrote:But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
So Jesus will be resurrected first, and that has already occurred.

The resurrection which we presently await is the one at which those "that are Christ's" will be resurrected. Those "that are Christ's" refers to Christians. This resurrection for all those that are Christ's occurs at the Second Coming of Jesus to the earth, or "at his coming."

The rest of the dead are nonbelievers, who will be resurrected as humans a thousand years after the Second Coming:
Revelation 20:5 wrote:But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
As I understand Christian theology, at least that of some Christians, in as much as everyone who has not been resurrected remains in a state of unconsciousness what difference does it make if there's an order to resurrection or not?

Of course, if the dead do remain conscious I'm curious as to what are they conscious of.



.

Noose001
Apprentice
Posts: 207
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:32 am
Has thanked: 33 times
Been thanked: 6 times

Re: Resurrection

Post #27

Post by Noose001 »

onewithhim wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:32 am
God said that humans would die and go back to the dust. (Genesis 3:19) Are we calling God a liar?

No. God said many things, it's our understanding of those things that matter.
It is not Biblical that believers die and resurrect almost at once. Paul spoke of the dead who were "asleep" in death, and Jesus likened death to sleep. The thief of the stake next to Jesus didn't think he would be anywhere that day. Jesus said that he would be with him in Paradise, but it wasn't "today" because he was dead for three days.
True, there was a time people slept awaiting Christ's resurrection and the 'church era', it's not the norm.

And

1. Resurrection is spiritual, body resurrection is was a sign in fulfilment of the prophesies and also signs must be seen. Jesus resurrected immediately after dying.

Matt 27:
50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and e went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

2. Yes, the thief was with Jesus in paradise that very night

Luke 23:
42Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!” 43And Jesus said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Noose001
Apprentice
Posts: 207
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:32 am
Has thanked: 33 times
Been thanked: 6 times

Re: Resurrection

Post #28

Post by Noose001 »

Checkpoint wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:57 pm

O.k. Please tell more about that. Such as:

What do you understand the traditional teachings are, on resurrection?

In what details are those traditional teachings not right?
1. Resurrection is not some physical event that will happen in a day in the far future; it is a continuous/daily thing that happens in the spirit.
2. It is not bodily but spiritual. A spiritual body does not mean flesh and blood, just spirit

and, believers who die during the church era only transition, their spirits indwell living believers here on earth where they guide them but also judge them.

Noose001
Apprentice
Posts: 207
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:32 am
Has thanked: 33 times
Been thanked: 6 times

Re: Resurrection

Post #29

Post by Noose001 »

myth-one.com wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:10 pm
I Corinthians 15:22 wrote:For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
So every human who ever lived will be made alive again, or resurrected. All includes both believers and nonbelievers! However, all will not be resurrected at the same time. There will be an order to the resurrections:
I Corinthians 15:23 wrote:But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
So Jesus will be resurrected first, and that has already occurred.

The resurrection which we presently await is the one at which those "that are Christ's" will be resurrected. Those "that are Christ's" refers to Christians. This resurrection for all those that are Christ's occurs at the Second Coming of Jesus to the earth, or "at his coming."
Christ the first fruits doesn't mean Jesus but the first lot which was a group of old testament saints who resurrected immediately after Christ's resurrection the day he died.
Then there was a break awaiting ratification of the beginning of church era which is also Christs coming. Believe it or not, it is not some distant future but it was sometime between the 1st and the 2nd century AD.

we know the precise time and it is when John wrote these words:

Rev 14:13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

That statement 'from now on' signified the beginning of the church era. The next verse goes on to talk about the harvesting that ensues.
The rest of the dead are nonbelievers, who will be resurrected as humans a thousand years after the Second Coming:
Revelation 20:5 wrote:But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
This, i agree with except the second coming part.

What is the source of your definition of "Biblical Resurrection"?
Bible especially Paul's teachings here:

1 Cor 15:29Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?

1 Thess 4:13Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

2 Cor 4:12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

13It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” b Since we have that same spirit of c faith, we also believe and therefore speak, 14because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.

In 1 Thess 4 and 2 Cor 4, Paul is talking about the same thing only that in Thess he counts himself among those who will be alive who will be 'caught up' together with the resurrected dead and in 2 Cor, he counts himself among those that will die, resurrected to be enjoined with his living listeners for their benefit.

Now, if this is not some continuous process then i don't know what is. Plus, how does Paul's death and resurrection benefit his listeners if resurrection is 21st century (and counting)? Why was he telling the Thess'nians to comfort one another with those words if resurrection is distant future? Why did Paul condone the 1st century practice of baptism for the dead if resurrection was distant future?

myth-one.com
Savant
Posts: 6085
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:16 pm
Has thanked: 23 times
Been thanked: 60 times
Contact:

Re: Resurrection

Post #30

Post by myth-one.com »

I Corinthians 15:23 wrote:But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Myth-one.com wrote:So Jesus will be resurrected first, and that has already occurred.
Noose001 wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:34 am Christ the first fruits doesn't mean Jesus . . .
It does according to the scriptures:
I Corinthians 15:20 wrote:But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept.
=================================================
Noose001 wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:34 am. . . we know the precise time . . .
Only God the Father knows the precise time of the Second Coming:
Mark 13:32 wrote:But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. (Mark 13:32)
Are you claiming to be God the father?
Remember Uvalde!

Post Reply