What happened to the original copies of the Gospels?

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William
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What happened to the original copies of the Gospels?

Post #1

Post by William »

The original manuscripts of the gospels are not known to have survived, so there is no way to verify if the gospels contained in the bible are true copies of said originals, or even if there actually existed originals and that what is presented as the gospels were simply fictitious creations of the early priesthood of Christianity, which eventually formalized them into a book, which was touted as being "The Word of God".

Q: Why were the original manuscripts allowed to perish if the bible is such a holy relic Christianity touts it to be?

Word of God - the sacred writings of the Christian religions; "he went to carry the Word to the heathen" Christian Bible, Good Book, Holy Scripture, Holy Writ, Scripture, Bible, Book, ...

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Re: What happened to the original copies of the Gospels?

Post #41

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

William wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:03 pm
Yes - I am not debating that fact.

What I am suggesting though, is that it is may not be "good enough" for The Father.
Suggestion noted. I disagree.

William wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:03 pm
Yet here you are saying so...

...Now as to educating on Mysticism 101;

We do not use the word 'believe' - not only because it plainly has the word 'lie' inserted within it, making it what it is - but more pointedly, because it can be used re misrepresentation [another lie] as in the word "Unbelieving" next to the word "Mysticism".
Tcg...take note on what the man is saying and what it implies.
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Re: What happened to the original copies of the Gospels?

Post #42

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:34 am
Please document what your "knowledge" is based on.
"Document". LOL.

Follow along carefully with me and Williams conversation, and I hopefully you will get to where we are...as far as understanding what is going on is concerned.
Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:34 am
Let's rephrase then. What is your goal in assigning it to him given that you've presented no evidence he identifies as such?


Tcg
Same reply as above.
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Re: What happened to the original copies of the Gospels?

Post #43

Post by William »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:35 pm
William wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:03 pm
Yes - I am not debating that fact.

What I am suggesting though, is that it is may not be "good enough" for The Father.
Suggestion noted. I disagree.
Again - this is a debate forum.

Why do you disagree?

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Re: What happened to the original copies of the Gospels?

Post #44

Post by Tcg »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:39 pm
Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:34 am
Please document what your "knowledge" is based on.
"Document". LOL.

Follow along carefully with me and Williams conversation, and I hopefully you will get to where we are...as far as understanding what is going on is concerned.
Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:34 am
Let's rephrase then. What is your goal in assigning it to him given that you've presented no evidence he identifies as such?


Tcg
Same reply as above.
Clearly you ignored this statement:

"because it can be used re misrepresentation [another lie] as in the word "Unbelieving" next to the word "Mysticism"."


Tcg
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Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

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I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: What happened to the original copies of the Gospels?

Post #45

Post by historia »

William wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:13 pm
So is your argument that if the originals could have been kept as evidence that the Christians wouldn't have kept them as evidence?
My arguments is that ancient Christians didn't share your concerns and motivations.
William wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:13 pm
In the late-2nd and early-3rd Century, the written gospels became increasingly popular with who?
Church leaders, who are the ones ultimately responsible for preserving and passing along the teachings of Jesus and the apostles.
William wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:13 pm
[W]hat tradition was being controlled and why?
The teachings of Jesus, and for accuracy.

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Re: What happened to the original copies of the Gospels?

Post #46

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:48 pm
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:39 pm
Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:34 am
Please document what your "knowledge" is based on.
"Document". LOL.

Follow along carefully with me and Williams conversation, and I hopefully you will get to where we are...as far as understanding what is going on is concerned.
Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:34 am
Let's rephrase then. What is your goal in assigning it to him given that you've presented no evidence he identifies as such?


Tcg
Same reply as above.
Clearly you ignored this statement:

"because it can be used re misrepresentation [another lie] as in the word "Unbelieving" next to the word "Mysticism"."


Tcg
Don't know the point being made there. When I said "unbelieving" I was talking about his unbelief in Christianity.

Either way, he isn't a Christian, and that is my point of contention.
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Re: What happened to the original copies of the Gospels?

Post #47

Post by Tcg »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:07 pm
Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:48 pm
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:39 pm
Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:34 am
Please document what your "knowledge" is based on.
"Document". LOL.

Follow along carefully with me and Williams conversation, and I hopefully you will get to where we are...as far as understanding what is going on is concerned.
Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:34 am
Let's rephrase then. What is your goal in assigning it to him given that you've presented no evidence he identifies as such?


Tcg
Same reply as above.
Clearly you ignored this statement:

"because it can be used re misrepresentation [another lie] as in the word "Unbelieving" next to the word "Mysticism"."


Tcg
Don't know the point being made there.
That's because you cut off the key aspect of my post:
Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:34 am
"Unbelieving mysticis'[sic]" is not a position I've seen William self-identify as holding.
I asked you to explain your motivation in assigning this term when William has not self-identified as such. In fact we now know that it is a term he objects to.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: What happened to the original copies of the Gospels?

Post #48

Post by William »

[Replying to historia in post #45]
My arguments is that ancient Christians didn't share your concerns and motivations.
Of course. That is my argument as well. Ancient Christians didn't care about the lives of the older versions of the Gospel writers as they were not into it at all.
That is why - even if there were such writing done, there would be no record of it kept by said ancient Christians [early Christian priesthood].
In the late-2nd and early-3rd Century, the written gospels became increasingly popular with who?
Church leaders, who are the ones ultimately responsible for preserving and passing along the teachings of Jesus and the apostles.
So why do we not have any teachings from the apostles re their personal journeys well after those initial events we do have from the church priesthood?
What tradition was being controlled and why?
The teachings of Jesus, and for accuracy
But those teachings point to the mysteries and should be part of the overall witness.

All we have are hints such as;

Johns Gospel:

And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written.

What we do get is a self aggrandizement of the Church, running off the shirttails of BJ and made to look like the church was the important thing about the whole process.
What the church obviously did was to make an image of BJ and worship said image.
Sometimes this happened with murderous intent.

At the very least, such as is the case, the church and its so-called 'word of god' should be treated with cautionary suspicion rather than embraced as a foundation of truth.

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Re: What happened to the original copies of the Gospels?

Post #49

Post by Tcg »

William wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:13 pm
So is your argument that if the originals could have been kept as evidence that the Christians wouldn't have kept them as evidence?
I don't know that Christians of that time would have considered evidence as something important to preserve. I doubt they thought about the distant future and the need to present evidence to doubters. It seems that faith is what was and is emphasized. Only a tiny minority would have ever seen the originals. Why would they feel a need to preserve something that played little or no part in their conversion and ongoing practice?


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: What happened to the original copies of the Gospels?

Post #50

Post by Bust Nak »

William wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 2:03 pm and your statement appears to be something along the lines of this;
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