Brother. Where art thou?

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Brother. Where art thou?

Post #1

Post by William »

Matt's Gospel
Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.


and;

Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.


Recently I had the misfortune of being accused of offending someone and someone else reported my offence to the authorities and without any further ado, I was penalized for it.

I cannot reveal the details of the case as it is soon to be under review [once I have finished documenting the details, and delivering these to the lawyers involved], but it got me to thinking about the alleged offence and the fact that I was not consulted because the evidence was accepted by the authority which received the complaint, as enough to warrant my being penalized.

Thus I simply had to pay the penalty [it was published and I first heard about it through the public domain] and now am lodging an appeal against the decision.

I have not been informed as to the identity of the complainant.

Based on the information re this situation and in relation to the script from Matts gospel;

QFD: Is it safe for me to assume, that it would not have been a Christian who lodged the complaint against me?

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Re: Brother. Where art thou?

Post #21

Post by William »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:38 pm
William wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:27 pm
Are you arguing that BJ was saying there are two distinct ways in which his followers should behave, one in matters of church and the other in matters of state?
Matthew 5 is part of the sermon on the mount. Jesus grew principles from the Jewish Temple based system that was in operation at the time of speaking
What I find interesting is how BJ seems well versed in Personality Profiling, and can deliver a message to everyone and certain specific personality types, all at the same time.
Matthew 18 was part of his instruction to his disciples as to how they should hands matters in his "church".

These comments in of of themselves do not answer the question.

Q: Are you arguing that BJ was saying there are two distinct ways in which his followers should behave, one in matters of church and the other in matters of state?

No, because Jesus always encouraged his listeners to act honestly and wisely. In Matthew 5 : recognise that sacrifice is valueless to God if you neglect human relationships. In Matthew 18: seek to establish peace (human relationships) wherever possible. The situations may varey, the authorities may change but the act honestly and wisely (what Jesus was saying his disciples should do) should remain constant.
I think you are spot on regarding this, JW.

Therefore would your answer to the OPQ be along the lines of "Yes - because - see above comment"?

It was not a Christian who complained about me, because a Christian would have come to me first to seek resolution.

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Re: Brother. Where art thou?

Post #22

Post by 1213 »

William wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:31 am
1213 wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:20 am
William wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:35 pm ...
QFD: Is it safe for me to assume, that it would not have been a Christian who lodged the complaint against me?
Christians are not perfect. It is possible that people who claim to be Christian don't do as told in the Bible, many of them don't necessary even know what is said in the Bible, unfortunately. But, if the person is a Christians, I think he should have done it as said in the Bible, in any case.
So, it could be argued from this, that the complainant might call him/herself a "Christian" but because they did not follow the teaching of BJ, they are lying?
Maybe, but it is possible also that they are just ignorant. And because it is possible that they just don't know what Jesus said, I think it would be good to show the scriptures to them and ask did they know it.

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Re: Brother. Where art thou?

Post #23

Post by Tcg »

1213 wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:36 am
William wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:31 am
1213 wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:20 am
William wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:35 pm ...
QFD: Is it safe for me to assume, that it would not have been a Christian who lodged the complaint against me?
Christians are not perfect. It is possible that people who claim to be Christian don't do as told in the Bible, many of them don't necessary even know what is said in the Bible, unfortunately. But, if the person is a Christians, I think he should have done it as said in the Bible, in any case.
So, it could be argued from this, that the complainant might call him/herself a "Christian" but because they did not follow the teaching of BJ, they are lying?
Maybe, but it is possible also that they are just ignorant. And because it is possible that they just don't know what Jesus said, I think it would be good to show the scriptures to them and ask did they know it.
Given this admission in the O.P:
"I have not been informed as to the identity of the complainant."
How could what you recommend be accomplished?


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Re: Brother. Where art thou?

Post #24

Post by JehovahsWitness »

William wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:04 pm Therefore would your answer to the OPQ be along the lines of "Yes - because - see above comment"?

It was not a Christian who complained about me, because a Christian would have come to me first to seek resolution.


Your conclusion seems to be based on the premise that Christians always do the right thing (by "right thing" I mean that which Jesus is recorded as being the godly way of doing things"). As a Christian myself I can testify that sadly that is not always the case. The bible says "all have sinned and fall short if the glory of God" so that is where scripturally punishment and forgiveness come in.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Re: Brother. Where art thou?

Post #25

Post by William »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:15 am
William wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:04 pm Therefore would your answer to the OPQ be along the lines of "Yes - because - see above comment"?

It was not a Christian who complained about me, because a Christian would have come to me first to seek resolution.


Your conclusion seems to be based on the premise that Christians always do the right thing (by "right thing" I mean that which Jesus is recorded as being the godly way of doing things"). As a Christian myself I can testify that sadly that is not always the case. The bible says "all have sinned and fall short if the glory of God" so that is where scripturally punishment and forgiveness come in.
So you are therefore saying that (sadly) it could have been a Christian?
Are you somehow justifying that someone can be a Christian and not 'do the right thing' re that which BJ is recorded as saying what "the godly way of doing things" is?

Someone can act 'ungodly' and still be a Christian?

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Re: Brother. Where art thou?

Post #26

Post by JehovahsWitness »

William wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:48 am.

So you are therefore saying that (sadly) it could have been a Christian?

Yes that is possible.
William wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:48 am Are you somehow justifying that someone can be a Christian and not 'do the right thing' ?

No its not a matter of justifying this (it is never just or right to act badly).

William wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:48 am Someone can act 'ungodly' and still be a Christian?
Yes, if they repent of their wrong doing and are willing to face the consequences of their actions.






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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Re: Brother. Where art thou?

Post #27

Post by William »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:20 pm
William wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:48 am.

So you are therefore saying that (sadly) it could have been a Christian?

Yes that is possible.
William wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:48 am Are you somehow justifying that someone can be a Christian and not 'do the right thing' ?

No its not a matter of justifying this (it is never just or right to act badly).

William wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:48 am Someone can act 'ungodly' and still be a Christian?
Yes, if they repent of their wrong doing and are willing to face the consequences of their actions.






JW
And if they do not do so, I can say with certainty that is was not a Christian who made the complaint about me?

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Re: Brother. Where art thou?

Post #28

Post by JehovahsWitness »

William wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:35 pm
And if they do not do so, I can say with certainty that is was not a Christian who made the complaint about me?
I would say It might be a Christian that is not living up to their calling and risks being judged by God for that.
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Re: Brother. Where art thou?

Post #29

Post by William »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:40 am
William wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:35 pm
And if they do not do so, I can say with certainty that is was not a Christian who made the complaint about me?
I would say It might be a Christian that is not living up to their calling and risks being judged by God for that.
In which case, the person who made a complaint without first seeking me out, might have been a Christian who used a means available to him/her which is not aligned with the way Biblical Jesus tells them they should do things and thus was not behaving as a Christian ought behave, but was nonetheless a Christian?
Would you say that this risk of being judged by the Christian God for that, might happen while they have time to repent and do the right thing [they repent of their wrong doing and are willing to face the consequences of their actions] which would also include having to right the wrong they caused to me through their actions?

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Re: Brother. Where art thou?

Post #30

Post by JehovahsWitness »

William wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:28 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:40 am
William wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:35 pm
And if they do not do so, I can say with certainty that is was not a Christian who made the complaint about me?
I would say It might be a Christian that is not living up to their calling and risks being judged by God for that.
In which case, the person who made a complaint without first seeking me out, might have been a Christian who used a means available to him/her which is not aligned with the way Biblical Jesus tells them they should do things and thus was not behaving as a Christian ought behave, but was nonetheless a Christian?
Exactly

William wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:28 am
Would you say that this risk of being judged by the Christian God for that, might happen while they have time to repent and do the right thing [they repent of their wrong doing and are willing to face the consequences of their actions] which would also include having to right the wrong they caused to me through their actions?
Yes that sounds reasonable.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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